toldailytopic: The Catholics: what did they get right, and what did they get wrong?

[jwp98]

Just a noob here, getting lost among grudge bearers and academics.

I visited the Vatican recently and must admit a great respect for the Church (as an organized, human political administration). I really dig the Jesuits since reading The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell. SJs seem bold, liberal (as opposed to intractable), and learned.

Huge issue with the Mother of God: if you believe she can hear your prayer, you have deified her. It's that simple. Not to worry though, we often temporarily deify living humans we fall in love with.

Lay people like me cannot square biblical teaching with Catholic doctrine. Little hope of change there, Catholics who read the bible still deal with the Church using tradition as a big hammer. I find Greek Orthodoxy a better balance. They broke off 300 years before that odd dude Luther.

 

[Cruciform]

I visited the Vatican recently and must admit a great respect for the Church (as an organized, human political administration). I really dig the Jesuits since reading The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell. SJs seem bold, liberal (as opposed to intractable), and learned.

Great novel. :thumb:

Huge issue with the Mother of God: if you believe she can hear your prayer, you have deified her. It's that simple.

Given your present distictly Protestant perspective, perhaps. However, what if your conclusion here is simply incorrect?

Praying to the Saints
Saint Worship?
"Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine"
All in the Family: The Communion of Saints​

Lay people like me cannot square biblical teaching with Catholic doctrine.

...or what you presently believe to be "biblical teaching," in any case. I've been there myself.

Catholics who read the bible still deal with the Church using tradition as a big hammer.

Even Scripture itself teaches that the Church's oral teaching Tradition is the word of God right along with with the written texts.

I find Greek Orthodoxy a better balance.

Before entering the Catholic Church in 2001, I seriously considered Eastern Orthodoxy as an alternative, but simply could not square it with the historical evidence. Still, I consider it to represent the only other near-contender for the label of "Christ's historic Church." History, however, clearly shows that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D.

Why I Am Not Eastern Orthodox
Why I Didn’t Convert to Eastern Orthodoxy
How Old Is Your Church?
Why Be Catholic?​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Nihilo]

Hi Cruciform,

Even Scripture itself teaches that the Church's oral teaching Tradition is the word of God right along with with the written texts.

Is there a Scripture or doctrine that compels us to take the words of the Lord Jesus Christ on a par with any other words, written or spoken, by anyone ?
I'm asking because of the Scripture (Jn 1:14) and doctrine that claims the Lord Jesus Christ is the literal Word of God in the flesh.

Before entering the Catholic Church in 2001, I seriously considered Eastern Orthodoxy as an alternative, but simply could not square it with the historical evidence. Still, I consider it to represent the only other near-contender for the label of "Christ's historic Church." History, however, clearly shows that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D.

Amen.

 

[Cruciform]

Is there a Scripture or doctrine that compels us to take the words of the Lord Jesus Christ on a par with any other words, written or spoken, by anyone ? I'm asking because of the Scripture (Jn 1:14) and doctrine that claims the Lord Jesus Christ is the literal Word of God in the flesh.

I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're asking. Can you elaborate a bit?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Nihilo]

Is there a Scripture or doctrine that compels us to take the words of the Lord Jesus Christ on a par with any other words, written or spoken, by anyone ? I'm asking because of the Scripture (Jn 1:14) and doctrine that claims the Lord Jesus Christ is the literal Word of God in the flesh.

I'm not sure I'm clear on what you're asking. Can you elaborate a bit?

Given that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Word of God in the flesh:
Is there any Scripture or doctrine which specifically addresses specifically this thought:
While all Scripture is "God-breathed," the Lord Jesus Christ's words, are on something of a higher level, than the rest of Scripture.

Let me know if I should flesh it out some more.

Thanks!

 

[Cruciform]

Is there any Scripture or doctrine which specifically addresses specifically this thought: While all Scripture is "God-breathed," the Lord Jesus Christ's words, are on something of a higher level, than the rest of Scripture.

In a real sense, all Scripture is "the Lord Jesus Christ's words," but I think I see what you're asking. I'm not aware of an explicit passage, but there could certainly be some biblical support for the idea that I don't know about. The Church has always taught that the four Gospels hold the highest place of importance among the documents of Scripture.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Nihilo]

In a real sense, all Scripture is "the Lord Jesus Christ's words," but I think I see what you're asking.

I definitely understand you. After all, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself quoted Deuteronomy 8:3 (Mt 4:4). So perhaps this clears up my question for me. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself says that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2Ti 3:16 (Jn 16:13, 1Co 2:13,14:37)), and Scripture literally says that the Keys were given to the Roman Catholic Church, which as you say is the Church founded by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself in 33 A.D.

The Church has always taught that the four Gospels hold the highest place of importance among the documents of Scripture.

This is very good to hear. Could you provide sources that I could read?

Thanks again Cruciform.

 

[Cruciform]

...This is very good to hear. Could you provide sources that I could read?

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

124 The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion, and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.

125 The Gospels are the heart of all the Scriptures because they are our principal source for the life and teaching of the Incarnate Word, our Savior.​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Nihilo]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

124 The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion, and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.

125 The Gospels are the heart of all the Scriptures because they are our principal source for the life and teaching of the Incarnate Word, our Savior.​

Awesome! :up: Thanks!

Right: The Roman Catholic Church has a Catechism.
Right: The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[griffinsavard]

The Catholics got it wrong in the Sacred Tradition idea that the Magisterium can be the ONLY interpreters of the Word. They claim to have a monopoly on the anointing of the Spirit thus excluding all other Christians who claim to possess the Spirit.....

A few passages which proves their doctrine wrong:

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

How do we get the Spirit?

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Once you accept Christ and receive the Spirit you have the anointing and you do not need the Magisterium to teach you anything.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Therefore the doctrine of Sacred tradition is false and no one has to submit to the authority of the Magisterium. We have the Spirit and we are able to teach and share whatever gifts the Spirit has given to us with others.

Can you prove me wrong?

 

[Cruciform]

Can you prove me wrong?

Yep:

The Church in Scripture & Early Christianity

"Solo Scriptura, Sola Scriptura, & the Question of Interpretive Authority"​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[bucksplasher]

Can you prove me wrong?

I'm not sure about everything you believe, but if your beliefs contradict the Church then my "Spirit" tells me you have it wrong.

tWINs

 

[Cruciform]

I'm not sure about everything you believe, but if your beliefs contradict the Church then my "Spirit" tells me you have it wrong.

:thumb:​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[sky.]

My neighbor. I'm not sure if the Catholics got her right but maybe God did. In any case we have some great conversations about God. She is a wonderful woman of the Catholic denomination.

 

[Lon]

Both right and wrong in a nutshell

Being Catholic