toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[glorydaz]

Bologna! Plain and simple! I could make, the worlds most GIGANTIC
hero sandwich out of the bologna you serve up!

LOL....I called it bull. :chuckle:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

This verse is not talking about the law.

Ezekiel 18:24 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.​

Again, you're dishing up another load of your famous, world
renowned bologna!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The assurance passages apply to those who believe/continue to believe, not those who cease to believe reverting back to godless unbelief. You are proof texting one motif or removing the conditional element in the larger context.

All verses are subject to interpretation and not immune to eisegesis/preconceived bias.

To those who think faith or continuance in the faith is a work, you are wrong. You cannot say initial faith is not a work, but continued faith is a work...does not compute. Abiding/remaining in Christ vs rejecting Him is not a works issue, but a fundamental issue of ultimate choice (God or Self).

Those who deny free will reduce us to robots vs image of God and impugn God by making Him vs us responsible for evil or damnation.

Your words sound pretty but, they have no real substance!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Great it all sounds...the only problem is it is not what the bible says,

It doesn't say any of all that...that is all how wise teachers suppose it must happen.

The bible says we are born not by the will of man or by the will of the flesh but by the will of God. but you say we ARE born by the will of man.

You're a Calvinist; that's why you don't recognize the truth when
it's presented to you!

 

[glorydaz]

Are you claiming that you are not worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Or are you claiming that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob decided He no longer cares if Christians behave wickedly?

When sons misbehave, they are chastened. I beat my kids, I don't take away the life I gave them.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

LOL....I called it bull. :chuckle:

Both, are closely related!

 

[godrulz]

Hebrews shows that the early church did not believe in OSAS.

 

[glorydaz]

Hebrews shows that the early church did not believe in OSAS.

Hebrews shows that the Jews who relied on the law were not entering into God's rest. Until they enter in, they are not saved. Believing in God was not enough, they needed to accept the Messiah in order to be saved. The letter to the Hebrews was a mixed bag of unsaved and saved and must be read as such.

Your understanding of certain verses in Hebrews is incorrect, which is why you make the statement you do.

 

[Angel4Truth]

No one can take us from the hand of God, but we can jump out. A verse that says persecution, demons, death cannot separate believers from God's love does not negate the verses that show we can turn our back on God, apostasize, fall away. You are selective with your evidence to support your view, but ignore things that contradict it.

The only way to embrace all relevant evidence is to see that there is a conditional element to conversion/perseverance, a Godward and a manward issue.

Teach us how the circumcised man is able to uncircumcise himself. Can he reattach what is dead and gone?

Is the believer not circumcised of heart? Is he then a new creation? Is the former dead and gone?

Tell us how one becomes unborn and goes back into that dead man.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Hebrews shows that the early church did not believe in OSAS.

You aren't reading it right, nor taking into consideration who its addressed to.

Paul often uses rhetoric to get his point across.

Its impossible to get saved again, because its already been finished and to claim one loses salvation is the one saying one would need to re-crucify Christ, which of course cannot be done, since it was totally completed the first time.

The person in hebrews wanting to continue guilt and sin offerings arent trusting in Christ.

 

[godrulz]

Teach us how the circumcised man is able to uncircumcise himself. Can he reattach what is dead and gone?

Is the believer not circumcised of heart? Is he then a new creation? Is the former dead and gone?

Tell us how one becomes unborn and goes back into that dead man.

Analogies, metaphors, etc. are analogous to, not identical with, spiritual reality/truth.

This lack of logic does not negate the assurance of the believer (we agree) or the stern warnings about apostasy/falling away (we disagree).

The issue is not whether believers are secure or not (they are), but whether a believer can revert to unbelief (if not, why not?).

 

[godrulz]

You aren't reading it right, nor taking into consideration who its addressed to.

Paul often uses rhetoric to get his point across.

Its impossible to get saved again, because its already been finished and to claim one loses salvation is the one saying one would need to re-crucify Christ, which of course cannot be done, since it was totally completed the first time.

The person in hebrews wanting to continue guilt and sin offerings arent trusting in Christ.

Heb. 3:6; 10 teach the possibility of apostasy. Jewish Christians who revert back to Judaism are doing what you are saying. You wrongly assume they are just Jews.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Heb. 3:6; 10 teach the possibility of apostasy. Jewish Christians who revert back to Judaism are doing what you are saying. You wrongly assume they are just Jews.

no, you miss that Hebrews was written to the Hebrews and dealing with the specific thing i have already stated.

Please address this post now:

Teach us how the circumcised man is able to uncircumcise himself. Can he reattach what is dead and gone?

Is the believer not circumcised of heart? Is he then a new creation? Is the former dead and gone?

Tell us how one becomes unborn and goes back into that dead man.

 

[Lighthouse]

Apparently William cannot contest what I have said.

 

[glorydaz]

You aren't reading it right, nor taking into consideration who its addressed to.

Paul often uses rhetoric to get his point across.

Its impossible to get saved again, because its already been finished and to claim one loses salvation is the one saying one would need to re-crucify Christ, which of course cannot be done, since it was totally completed the first time.

The person in hebrews wanting to continue guilt and sin offerings arent trusting in Christ.

Exactly. :thumb:

It would also be saying that when someone turns away they could no longer repent. That certainly isn't the case.

Heb. 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



Paul makes it clear when he refers to those with "things that accompany salvation," that those previously referred to did NOT have.

Heb. 6:9
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

 

[glorydaz]

Heb. 3:6; 10 teach the possibility of apostasy. Jewish Christians who revert back to Judaism are doing what you are saying. You wrongly assume they are just Jews.

This isn't speaking of the end of our life but believing unto that day of salvation. Many do not endure unto salvation...they turn back before entering in.

Heb. 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation



And this...."they have not known my ways" speaks of those who did not enter into the promised land because of their lack of faith.

Hebrews 3:10
Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

 

[Totton Linnet]

No, for we do not give ourselves life...which is what that verse is talking about. The Word would not tell us to come, if we were not able to come. We would not be told to repent, if we were not able to repent. We would not be told to turn to the Lord, if we were not able to turn. We would not be told to choose, if we were not able to choose. We would not be told to EAT and DRINK if we were not able to do so.

What you do see is "Ye would not," NOT "Ye could not."

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!



You just can't explain it away....we are told to COME.

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Yes you see them as polite requests...actually they are commands, God is not curtsying to us and begging our pardon.

It is the same fiat as "let there be light and there was light" so when that same word says to us come we do come. God is a great King.

But people are not free to come, they are in bondage....the religious man, whatever that religion is which is opposed to God is bound by that religion [it is a spirit of bondage] the drug addict is in bondage, the prostitute, the power seeking politician or business magnate, all these are enslaved and when the command to "come" is proclaimed even if they will to come that will is in bondage.

But with the proclamation comes the Holy Ghost in power to enforce the command "come" [at least in the bible, or in times of revival] and this He does setting free whom He will....everything is according to God's will....God's will is not resistible.

If you read the stories of the Wesley revivals you see it clearly this is just what caused the roarings and forments among the crowds...it is God setting men free.

And for all they say about John Wesley is was not the freewill preacher he was supposed to have been...he never asked for people to come forward to make a decision, such a mode of operation would have not entered his mind. He like the apostles commanded repentance and left the people in the hands of Almighty God.

This asking for a show of hands or coming forward is busybodying, interfering with the work of the Holy Ghost. And the half of those who come forward of "their own freewill" are not saved at all...but they are told they are, because they came forward, but they never repented. they came to the evangelist and his counsellors but they never came to Christ.

These are they who wreak havoc in the church, these are they who fall away.

 

[Totton Linnet]

God gave the law in the first instance knowing full well that the people are INCAPABLE of fulfilling it so He DOES command knowing we have not the ability or power to perform. It is this tension which [when people see their awful need] the command and the inability to perform the command which makes men cry out "what must we do to be saved?"

 

[JonahofAkron]

God gave the law in the first instance knowing full well that the people are INCAPABLE of fulfilling it so He DOES command knowing we have not the ability or power to perform. It is this tension which [when people see their awful need] the command and the inability to perform the command which makes men cry out "what must we do to be saved?"

What, then, do we make of the words 'it is not too difficult for you to do'?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes you see them as polite requests...actually they are commands, God is not curtsying to us and begging our pardon.

It is the same fiat as "let there be light and there was light" so when that same word says to us come we do come. God is a great King.

But people are not free to come, they are in bondage....the religious man, whatever that religion is which is opposed to God is bound by that religion [it is a spirit of bondage] the drug addict is in bondage, the prostitute, the power seeking politician or business magnate, all these are enslaved and when the command to "come" is proclaimed even if they will to come that will is in bondage.

But with the proclamation comes the Holy Ghost in power to enforce the command "come" [at least in the bible, or in times of revival] and this He does setting free whom He will....everything is according to God's will....God's will is not resistible.

If you read the stories of the Wesley revivals you see it clearly this is just what caused the roarings and forments among the crowds...it is God setting men free.

And for all they say about John Wesley is was not the freewill preacher he was supposed to have been...he never asked for people to come forward to make a decision, such a mode of operation would have not entered his mind. He like the apostles commanded repentance and left the people in the hands of Almighty God.

This asking for a show of hands or coming forward is busybodying, interfering with the work of the Holy Ghost. And the half of those who come forward of "their own freewill" are not saved at all...but they are told they are, because they came forward, but they never repented. they came to the evangelist and his counsellors but they never came to Christ.

These are they who wreak havoc in the church, these are they who fall away.

You, have not a clue about which you speak! You presume to
be the ultimate authority of ALL truth! Young Lady, you have
a lot to learn!