toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Apparently to who? You, who can't even understand what I post much less what Scripture says?
Put up or shut up. Where have I ever said Jesus didn't die for all or where I've even suggested God wants any to perish.




If you are IN CHRIST, it is He who keeps you. Your choice to be obedient or not only affects how much chastening you receive.




That's the biggest bunch of malarkey I've heard from you yet. Paul says to examine yourself whether you be in the faith. That's exactly what I'm telling you and all the others who have no assurance of salvation. The opposite of assurance is doubt. Doubt is what you preach since you have made it clear a believer can lose his salvation. Or is it only "those other guys" that might lose their salvation...not someone like you who is so much holier than everyone else?

One must be fully persuaded that Jesus saves and that HE ALONE is the Saviour. You don't stay saved because you "choose" to remain in Him. If you are His, you have been bought and paid for and have already surrendered yourself to His keeping.




No, you're the one who claims Jesus' sacrifice isn't adequate. You claim you have to add something to that work on the cross. You claim you have to help Jesus keep you unto the day of redemption. You prove you don't trust Him to do the work in you.

100% Truth! It doesn't get better than this!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

IMJ, Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind, that's true,
however, only those who place their faith in Him as Lord
and Savior, receive ANY benefit from His shed blood and
resurrection! Once one is, sealed, cleansed, and indwelt
by the Holy Spirit, they CANNOT lose their salvation/
eternal life!

 

[genuineoriginal]

The difference between most of
the people on this thread and myself is, I believe once
a person is saved, they're saved for eternity!

How is that any different than my belief that once a person is saved, they are saved for eternity?

 

[genuineoriginal]

I don't question Christ, nor the Holy Spirit, I question those who
deny that God is able to keep them saved!

Why would God need to keep people saved?

 

[genuineoriginal]

One must be fully persuaded that God is able to perform what He has promised....not that we must help Him.

Who said we have to help Him? Oh, right, it was you.
That is not a belief I have.

I believe that God is the one separating the gold from the dross among those that profess to believe.
Those that continue in the faith are the ones that He chooses for salvation, those that fall away are thrown into the fire.
Everyone that continues in the faith has every confidence in their coming salvation.

That is much different than the belief of OSAS where a person can never know whether they have already been saved or were never really saved in the first place.

 

[genuineoriginal]

has promised He will NOT blot them out of His book.

That is a conditional promise to those that overcome.
The implication is that the people that fall away will be blotted out from His book.

 

[Nick M]

Yes, so long as we continue in the faith.

Acts 14:22 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.​

That is not about the Body of Christ and eternal life. The Kingdom of God requires enduring to the end.

 

[Totton Linnet]

There is a difference between honest doubts or wavering as believers (Thomas, Peter) and a final rejection of great light without remaining in the light and becoming a godless unbeliever, not just a struggling believer (Judas; apostates).

Apostasy is an extreme thing, not just a doubt or fleshly sin common to most believers.

Not my point really, I hexpect if I asked genor as I have asked you and several other conditional salvationist "will YOU be saved at the last?" he will puff his cheeks out as you did and say "of course."

They just want to put the wind up everyone else. I am sure genor is the child of God.

But they bang on about "maintaining the faith" while preaching doubt.
They go on and on about "abiding in Christ" while resting upon works.
They talk endlessly about holding on to their first confidence yet not one of them came to Christ at the first promising Him that they would earn their salvation.

They say it is eternal life...but it may not last long. It is a theology of mass contradictions, uncertainty, fickle and changeable.

No wonder for it is centred upon MAN that is themselves, God will shake such a double minded faith as this and He will keep shaking and shaking it again and again until they learn to trust themselves wholly to God and what He has promised.

Not OSAS that is a caricature, the bible word is everlasting life.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Kingdom of God requires enduring to the end.

Yes it does.
That is why Paul and Barnabus taught it in Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Not my point really, I hexpect if I asked genor as I have asked you and several other conditional salvationist "will YOU be saved at the last?" he will puff his cheeks out as you did and say "of course."

No, I would not. I know that it is only those that humble themselves before the LORD who will be lifted up. If I was to puff out my cheeks and say "of course I am saved", then I would be among the proud that God resists instead of being among the humble that gain God's favor.

But they bang on about "maintaining the faith" while preaching doubt.

I believe that God is the one separating the gold from the dross among those that profess to believe.
Those that continue in the faith are the ones that He chooses for salvation, those that fall away are thrown into the fire.
Everyone that continues in the faith has every confidence in their coming salvation.
It is easy to know if you are continuing in the faith, why do you think there is any doubt?

They go on and on about "abiding in Christ" while resting upon works.

There is no way to earn salvation by relying on works.
Jesus looks into your heart and can see if you are just paying lip service to Him.
You must rely on Jesus and abide with Him by hearing what He says and walking in obedience to His instructions.
You must maintain a living relationship with Jesus in order to gain salvation.

They talk endlessly about holding on to their first confidence yet not one of them came to Christ at the first promising Him that they would earn their salvation.

Who among us did not come to Christ repenting of our sins?
If we repented of our sins, should we return to living in them?
Who among us did not come to Christ calling Him Lord?
If He is Lord, should we not continue in obedience to His instructions?

They say it is eternal life...but it may not last long. It is a theology of mass contradictions, uncertainty, fickle and changeable.

I have seen many people become saved over and over again because of OSAS. They lose confidence in their original salvation, and cannot believe they were truly saved without another born-again experience, as if the first was not good enough. They doubt whether they managed to believe strong enough to cross over from death to eternal life. They see friends and trusted mentors exposed as frauds and perverts, and wonder how their salvation is any more secure.

No, it is much better to follow the teachings of the Apostles on how to be sure you will be found worthy of the promise than to put your trust in a one-time conversion experience.

 

[IMJerusha]

Apparently to who? You, who can't even understand what I post much less what Scripture says?
Put up or shut up. Where have I ever said Jesus didn't die for all or where I've even suggested God wants any to perish.

You can always be counted on for the lovely Christian witness. What exactly have I not put up? I've repeatedly posted Yeshua's words and Paul's words. Every time you tell a Brother or Sister of the Body that they have no assurance of salvation, you are telling Yeshua that what He did on the cross wasn't salvation for all; that He didn't do His part. What He did, He did corporately for all and in that, everyone's salvation is assured. Our response to that is individual and necessary, according to Yeshua and all His disciples including Paul.

If you are IN CHRIST, it is He who keeps you. Your choice to be obedient or not only affects how much chastening you receive.

But that is not what Yeshua has said over and over again. He speaks of the necessity to remain in Him, to keep His commands, to respond to the Ruach and show forth His fruit, to do His Father's Will. He prayed that we not fall prey to the evil one and be tempted. He instructed us to pray the same. He didn't say that we don't have to do these things. Quite the contrary. He told us that we are to wash our robes. He gave us the Ruach to help us, not do it all for us and nowhere in Scripture will you find that Yeshua said the Ruach would do it for us. He did His part. He expects us to do ours.

That's the biggest bunch of malarkey I've heard from you yet. Paul says to examine yourself whether you be in the faith.

Which you claim is a work; a work we can not do because the Ruach is supposed to do it all for us. But Yeshua never said that. You tie the hands of believers like the Pharisees did. Matthew 23:15. You tell people the freedom they now have in Yeshua is works based salvation which it is not since no one can do what Yeshua did. In that process you insult the work of the Ruach in us. Everything we need is in the blood of Yeshua and God's word but you want to warp and twist that word until it is of no value or use to people.

That's exactly what I'm telling you and all the others who have no assurance of salvation. The opposite of assurance is doubt. Doubt is what you preach since you have made it clear a believer can lose his salvation. Or is it only "those other guys" that might lose their salvation...not someone like you who is so much holier than everyone else?

Again you have just told Yeshua His work on the cross provided no assurance for some. Do I sound like I doubt my salvation? No, I don't. While you think you're insulting me, you're insulting Him and I suspect you find your behavior humorous. Sometimes I think the only reason folks want to read Scripture at all is so that it can be used to hurt the Body. According to you, heaven forbid we should try to live by what it says.

One must be fully persuaded that Jesus saves and that HE ALONE is the Saviour. You don't stay saved because you "choose" to remain in Him. If you are His, you have been bought and paid for and have already surrendered yourself to His keeping.

Well you have all the rhetoric of the OSAS doctrine down pat. It's a shame you choose to ignore Yeshua's words in the process. John 15:4-6 -- " 'Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.' " You say out of one side of your mouth that Yeshua alone is our Savior and from the other side of your mouth comes the insult to His work of assurance for all.

No, you're the one who claims Jesus' sacrifice isn't adequate. You claim you have to add something to that work on the cross. You claim you have to help Jesus keep you unto the day of redemption. You prove you don't trust Him to do the work in you.

No, I do not. I show forth a grateful heart to God by wanting to serve Him in obedience to Ruach HaKodesh Who guides me both directly and through Scripture. As I and others like me do that, folks like you are proclaiming our action to be works based salvation which again, is impossible since no one can do what Yeshua did. Yeshua secured my salvation. Paul tells us, "Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position." Yeshua did not die in vain for some and Paul did not preach doubt.

 

[glorydaz]

That is a conditional promise to those that overcome.
The implication is that the people that fall away will be blotted out from His book.

Yes, let's talk about those who overcome. I see your belief is much closer to the truth than those who claim we can lose our salvation. So, I will put forth these verses for your careful consideration, and trust the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth therein.



Jesus told us to have peace while we suffer tribulation because He has overcome the world.

1. John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.




We see as children of God we have overcome because Christ in us is greater than he that is in the world.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.




"This is the victory that overcometh the world...even our FAITH."

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.




He that believeth is he that overcometh.

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.



Here we see the importance of our KNOWING we have eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Not my point really, I hexpect if I asked genor as I have asked you and several other conditional salvationist "will YOU be saved at the last?" he will puff his cheeks out as you did and say "of course."

They just want to put the wind up everyone else. I am sure genor is the child of God.

But they bang on about "maintaining the faith" while preaching doubt.
They go on and on about "abiding in Christ" while resting upon works.
They talk endlessly about holding on to their first confidence yet not one of them came to Christ at the first promising Him that they would earn their salvation.

They say it is eternal life...but it may not last long. It is a theology of mass contradictions, uncertainty, fickle and changeable.

No wonder for it is centred upon MAN that is themselves, God will shake such a double minded faith as this and He will keep shaking and shaking it again and again until they learn to trust themselves wholly to God and what He has promised.

Not OSAS that is a caricature, the bible word is everlasting life.

:first:

 

[glorydaz]

You can always be counted on for the lovely Christian witness. What exactly have I not put up? I've repeatedly posted Yeshua's words and Paul's words. Every time you tell a Brother or Sister of the Body that they have no assurance of salvation, you are telling Yeshua that what He did on the cross wasn't salvation for all; that He didn't do His part. What He did, He did corporately for all and in that, everyone's salvation is assured. Our response to that is individual and necessary, according to Yeshua and all His disciples including Paul.



But that is not what Yeshua has said over and over again. He speaks of the necessity to remain in Him, to keep His commands, to respond to the Ruach and show forth His fruit, to do His Father's Will. He prayed that we not fall prey to the evil one and be tempted. He instructed us to pray the same. He didn't say that we don't have to do these things. Quite the contrary. He told us that we are to wash our robes. He gave us the Ruach to help us, not do it all for us and nowhere in Scripture will you find that Yeshua said the Ruach would do it for us. He did His part. He expects us to do ours.



Which you claim is a work; a work we can not do because the Ruach is supposed to do it all for us. But Yeshua never said that. You tie the hands of believers like the Pharisees did. Matthew 23:15. You tell people the freedom they now have in Yeshua is works based salvation which it is not since no one can do what Yeshua did. In that process you insult the work of the Ruach in us. Everything we need is in the blood of Yeshua and God's word but you want to warp and twist that word until it is of no value or use to people.



Again you have just told Yeshua His work on the cross provided no assurance for some. Do I sound like I doubt my salvation? No, I don't. While you think you're insulting me, you're insulting Him and I suspect you find your behavior humorous. Sometimes I think the only reason folks want to read Scripture at all is so that it can be used to hurt the Body. According to you, heaven forbid we should try to live by what it says.



Well you have all the rhetoric of the OSAS doctrine down pat. It's a shame you choose to ignore Yeshua's words in the process. John 15:4-6 -- " 'Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.' " You say out of one side of your mouth that Yeshua alone is our Savior and from the other side of your mouth comes the insult to His work of assurance for all.



No, I do not. I show forth a grateful heart to God by wanting to serve Him in obedience to Ruach HaKodesh Who guides me both directly and through Scripture. As I and others like me do that, folks like you are proclaiming our action to be works based salvation which again, is impossible since no one can do what Yeshua did. Yeshua secured my salvation. Paul tells us, "Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position." Yeshua did not die in vain for some and Paul did not preach doubt.

There is no sense in even responding to your posts, IMJerusha, since everything goes in your one ear and out the other.

You are unteachable and content in being so. :nono:

 

[genuineoriginal]

Yes, let's talk about those who overcome. I see your belief is much closer to the truth than those who claim we can lose our salvation. So, I will put forth these verses for your careful consideration, and trust the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth therein.



Jesus told us to have peace while we suffer tribulation because He has overcome the world.

1. John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Jesus also said there will be those that fall away because of tribulation.

Matthew 13:20-21 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.​

In my understanding, these are people that did not continue in the faith. They tried to save their lives, and ended up losing them.

OSAS says they are either saved despite not overcoming, or they were never saved in the first place, causing great confusion.

We see as children of God we have overcome because Christ in us is greater than he that is in the world.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

John starts out by setting forth conditions for knowing whether we are in fellowship with Jesus or not.

1 John 1:6-7 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.​

We can't overcome without being in fellowship with Him, but we can know when we are in fellowship with Him.

1 John 4:13 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.​

Romans 8:9 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​

"This is the victory that overcometh the world...even our FAITH."

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

It seems to come down to which definition of faith you will use.
The Greek word used has these definitions:

Faith: Fidelity, the character of one who can be relied on
Faith: conviction or belief​

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word had only this definition:

Faith: firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness​

To clear up the confusion caused by the Greek word, James was inspired by the Spirit to write:

James 2:18 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.​

He that believeth is he that overcometh.

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

This is all talking about the power given to Jesus to judge and give eternal life to those He judged worthy.

John 5:21-29 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​

The difference is that OSAS focuses on "hath everlasting life" and "passed from death unto life" while ignoring "the hour is coming".
I believe that Jesus will execute judgment at the resurrection, with everyone written in the book of life being raised up for the resurrection of life.

Here we see the importance of our KNOWING we have eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Yes, it is very important. That is why the entire book of 1 John is written telling people exactly what criteria is needed for a person to know that they have the promise of eternal life.

1 John 2:24-25 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.​

 

[IMJerusha]

There is no sense in even responding to your posts, IMJerusha, since everything goes in your one ear and out the other.

You are unteachable and content in being so. :nono:

Baruch HaShem! I am most grateful for His teaching...yours, not so much! I see the same level of contentment in genuine. Are you going to stop responding to him too?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Who said we have to help Him? Oh, right, it was you.
That is not a belief I have.

I believe that God is the one separating the gold from the dross among those that profess to believe.
Those that continue in the faith are the ones that He chooses for salvation, those that fall away are thrown into the fire.
Everyone that continues in the faith has every confidence in their coming salvation.

That is much different than the belief of OSAS where a person can never know whether they have already been saved or were never really saved in the first place.

What you just said, makes no logical sense!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

That is a conditional promise to those that overcome.
The implication is that the people that fall away will be blotted out from His book.

You just can't get anything right, can you?

 

[godrulz]

That is not about the Body of Christ and eternal life. The Kingdom of God requires enduring to the end.

The fundamentals of redemption are the same. MAD/hyper-disp is arbitrary on this, especially post-cross.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You can always be counted on for the lovely Christian witness. What exactly have I not put up? I've repeatedly posted Yeshua's words and Paul's words. Every time you tell a Brother or Sister of the Body that they have no assurance of salvation, you are telling Yeshua that what He did on the cross wasn't salvation for all; that He didn't do His part. What He did, He did corporately for all and in that, everyone's salvation is assured. Our response to that is individual and necessary, according to Yeshua and all His disciples including Paul.



But that is not what Yeshua has said over and over again. He speaks of the necessity to remain in Him, to keep His commands, to respond to the Ruach and show forth His fruit, to do His Father's Will. He prayed that we not fall prey to the evil one and be tempted. He instructed us to pray the same. He didn't say that we don't have to do these things. Quite the contrary. He told us that we are to wash our robes. He gave us the Ruach to help us, not do it all for us and nowhere in Scripture will you find that Yeshua said the Ruach would do it for us. He did His part. He expects us to do ours.



Which you claim is a work; a work we can not do because the Ruach is supposed to do it all for us. But Yeshua never said that. You tie the hands of believers like the Pharisees did. Matthew 23:15. You tell people the freedom they now have in Yeshua is works based salvation which it is not since no one can do what Yeshua did. In that process you insult the work of the Ruach in us. Everything we need is in the blood of Yeshua and God's word but you want to warp and twist that word until it is of no value or use to people.



Again you have just told Yeshua His work on the cross provided no assurance for some. Do I sound like I doubt my salvation? No, I don't. While you think you're insulting me, you're insulting Him and I suspect you find your behavior humorous. Sometimes I think the only reason folks want to read Scripture at all is so that it can be used to hurt the Body. According to you, heaven forbid we should try to live by what it says.



Well you have all the rhetoric of the OSAS doctrine down pat. It's a shame you choose to ignore Yeshua's words in the process. John 15:4-6 -- " 'Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.' " You say out of one side of your mouth that Yeshua alone is our Savior and from the other side of your mouth comes the insult to His work of assurance for all.



No, I do not. I show forth a grateful heart to God by wanting to serve Him in obedience to Ruach HaKodesh Who guides me both directly and through Scripture. As I and others like me do that, folks like you are proclaiming our action to be works based salvation which again, is impossible since no one can do what Yeshua did. Yeshua secured my salvation. Paul tells us, "Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position." Yeshua did not die in vain for some and Paul did not preach doubt.

You're another poster on this thread that doesn't make
a lot of logical sense! You people are the ones who don't
accept OSAS (as the Bible teaches)

Nobody has to tell you people that, you have no
assurance, some (most) already, freely admit it!