toldailytopic: Is it wrong to hate?

[Lighthouse]

The Bible is written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. 'Hate' is an English word. The meanings of English words are defined by the dictionary. If you think the Bible wants you to pursue a course of action based on hatred, that's fine, but don't say 'hate', because that's not what the word means.

Hate [Psalm 5:5, 139:21-22]

Abhor [Psalm 5:6]

Now, what do they mean?

I'm talking about the English verb 'to hate'; I don't know what the Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew words that are used in the original scripts are, I'm afraid. You could ask chair about the Hebrew, and I think there are a couple of Greek speakers here somewhere...

The point I'm pursuing is that a book can't redefine the language it's written in, because to argue such is fundamentally self-defeating. In this case, Nick M, LH and co. are saying that the 'hatred' referred to in the Bible is a course of action rather than an emotion. However, 'hatred' is defined in the official authority on the meaning of words as being an emotion. Therefore, what Nick and LH are describing as 'hatred' isn't hatred, it's something else. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not what's described in the Bible, but it does mean that the word 'hatred' is an inaccurate description of it.

See above.

Not necessarily. Human beings are creatures of passions, and sinful ones at times. God is described as "regretting", I don't think God actually regrets in the same way human beings do, its a simplistic way of explaining God's actions to human beings, not necessarily showing a direct analogy from human emotion to divine emotion.

Ascribing emotions to that without emotions is anthropopathism. There is a slight difference.

To say God has no emotions illustrates a Biblical illiteracy.

Can you give a verse that says God does not regret the same way we do?

The problem is, hate as defined as a normal English term is an emotion that, in humans, would be completely in conflict with sacrificing one's self for the person you hate. This is clearly something God has done. So either the Psalmist is taking a bit of descriptive license and/or God's hatred is not like our hatred.

You clearly don't know what perfect hatred is.

Either way, a poetic statement that "God hates evil" shouldn't be construed as a command for US to hate people. Especially when hatred is not part of the fruit of the spirit nor do we see Christ hating anyone.

Hate and love are not mutually exclusive. We are capable of both, as is God. And if we truly love someone we will hate not only their wickedness, but them for their wickedness.

 

[Alate_One]

Ascribing emotions to that without emotions is anthropopathism. There is a slight difference.

Mkay that's what I am saying then.

To say God has no emotions illustrates a Biblical illiteracy.

That's stupid because that isn't what I said.

Can you give a verse that says God does not regret the same way we do?

If God does not change, how can He regret in the same way humans do.

You clearly don't know what perfect hatred is.

And how do you know what "perfect hatred" is, because you made up a definition. There's no definition in scripture.

Hate and love are not mutually exclusive.

You cannot both hate and love the exact same thing. They are opposites. Hence "hate the sin, love the sinner". Why? because you recognize "there but for the grace of God go I".

We are capable of both, as is God.

I dispute the idea that hatred displayed by God is the same as human hatred, which is laced with all kinds of negative emotions and is destructive to the human spirit. Hatred of another person in humans is a constant seething anger.

And if we truly love someone we will hate not only their wickedness, but them for their wickedness.

Why would we hate them FOR their wickedness when our hearts are just as wicked? This is the difference between US and God. We do not have a righteous position to judge from.

 

[Zeena]

Hate [Psalm 5:5, 139:21-22]

Abhor [Psalm 5:6]

Now, what do they mean?


See above.

This section will be devoted to Scriptural words and their meaning. We will not only establish the etymological roots of these words, but we will reveal how many English words are actually Hebrew words. Everything and anything you might want to know about the Hebrew language will be discussed and presented in this section.
E-mail us if you want to know what a particular word is and we will be happy to post it here for all to read. If you are interested in it, maybe many others are, too.


SANE'


Love and hate are two words truly misunderstood and extremely overused. Love is used for everything from fried chicken to YHVH himself. The word hate is equally spread out from broccoli to Osama bin Laden. Scripturally, this word is from the Hebrew sane'
(saw nay). It is most notably seen in the several occasions of YHVH's feeling toward Ya'akov and Esav. "Ya'akov I have loved, but Esav I hated." Romans 9:13 (also Mal'akhi 1:2-3). Do you think that YHVH hated Esav in the same way that I hate celery or horseradish? I think not. This word means to 'distance oneself' or to 'not prefer'. The context of its scriptural meaning becomes more obvious when seen from its Hebrew meaning. When Yahshua says that a true disciple is one who 'hates' his father and mother (Luke 14:26), he simply means one who prefers the Messiah over his parents. YHVH preferred Ya'akov over Esav because Esav despised his birthright. In Mizmor 81:15, we read of 'haters of YHVH'. It is simply those who do not prefer YHVH to the rest of what life has to offer and they distance themselves from Him. There are many other Hebrew words that would correspond better to our modern understanding of hate: bazah (despise), ma'as (to loathe), to'evah (abominable). So ask yourself, "Do I really hate my little brother?" Shalom Alecheim!

http://www.wildbranch.org/WOTW/10sane.htm

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Galatians 6:3-10
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5For every man shall bear his own burden.
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

 

[MrRadish]

Hate [Psalm 5:5, 139:21-22]

Abhor [Psalm 5:6]

Now, what do they mean?

See above.

That's irrelevant. If the Psalm is describing the action you say it's describing, then the translator has used the wrong word.

EDIT: Also, check out Zeena's point about translations. I think that's really interesting, personally.

 

[Alate_One]

But first:

You can't separate sin from the sinner: "As a man thinks in his heart, SO IS HE" (Prov. 23:7)

Its interesting how your the verses you posted aren't what my "plain meaning" Tanakh says in many cases . . .

He is like one keeping accounts;

"God HATES all WORKERS of iniquity" (Ps. 5:5).

For You are not a God who desires wickedness; evil cannot abide with you.

"The Lord ABHORS the bloodthirsty and deceitful MAN" (Ps. 5:6).

wanton men cannot endure in Your sight. You detest all evildoers;

"The WICKED and the ONE WHO loves violence [God] HATES" (Ps. 11:5).

the Lord seeks out the righteous man, but loathes the wicked one who loves injustice.

"God LOVES RIGHTEOUSNESS and HATES WICKEDNESS" (Ps. 45:7).

Everyone should hate wickedness . . . nobody is arguing that.

"The LORD HATES a HEART that devises wicked plans, a FASLE WITNESS, ONE WHO sows discord among the brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19).

Not a whole person, an aspect of one.

God reminds us, "All wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I HATED THEM. Because of the evil of THEIR DEEDS I will drive them from My house; I will LOVE THEM NO MORE" (Ho. 9:13).

All their misfortune [began] at Gilgal For there I disowned them for their evil deeds I will drive them out of My House and accept them no more.

(there is a footnote on disowned them saying "the specific allusion is uncertain".

And Moses wrote of God: "If you do not obey ME, MY SOUL shall ABHOR YOU" (Lev. 26:27-30).

But if, despite this, you disobey Me and remain hostile to Me I will act against you in wrathful hostility; I,for My part, will discipline you sevenfold for your sins.

Then there is hypocritical love: God warns, "Should you LOVE THOSE WHO HATE the LORD? Therefore the WRATH of the LORD is upon YOU" (2 Chr. 19:2)

God warns? That's a statement from Jehu.

Now, I've made it easy for you. In light of the above passages (I can give more), can you admit that God HATES wicked humans? I'll make it easier--multiple choice even:

Except your HATES emphasis is based on a misunderstanding of the text. So much for "My KJV Bible and me"

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Mr. Religion,

I try to respond to all posts directed at me. I missed this one. I apologize.

You asked my definition of hate?

No, I asked for your view of Godly "hate", that is, what is "hate" from God's perspective.

Frst, there are different degrees of hate. I hate the homo Catholic priest who sodomizes innocent little boys with intense hatred. I hate him with righteous indignation. I hate the rapist more than I hate a petty thief.

I don't try and read double meanings into God's word. When I open my Bible and I read God saying, "My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:27-30), I take God at His word.

When I read that God says you are a hypocrite if you love those who hate God (2 Chr. 19:2), I take it just to mean that. If God has free will to love, it is logically that He has free will to hate.

If God loved everyone--the wicked and the righteous--His love would be meaningless. God had no problem with King David's perfect hatred (Ps. 139:20-22).

We should have no problem hating those God hates. God hates the wicked and so do I.

Rebuking the wicked is showing love. Not rebuking the wicked is the opposite of love.

All you have essentially done here is repeat Scripture's use of the words for "hate" or tell me you hate this or that. So once again, I ask that you please define for me what you think God's perfect hate means. I gave you my definition and you ignored it, so I will assume you have a different view. It goes to the heart of the discussion, no?

AMR

 

[Lighthouse]

That's stupid because that isn't what I said.

You said God doesn't have that emotion. So what's the difference? Why some emotions and not others?

If God does not change, how can He regret in the same way humans do.

He can regret things because they did not turn out the way He wanted them to.

“I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the LORD all night.
-1 Samuel 15:11

And how do you know what "perfect hatred" is, because you made up a definition. There's no definition in scripture.

I inferred from the context. You know what context is, don't you?

You cannot both hate and love the exact same thing. They are opposites. Hence "hate the sin, love the sinner". Why? because you recognize "there but for the grace of God go I".

You're wrong. Apathy is the opposite of love and hate. Hate and love are not opposites of each other. They are not mutually exclusive. And "hate the sin, love the sinner," is nowhere in the Bible.

I dispute the idea that hatred displayed by God is the same as human hatred, which is laced with all kinds of negative emotions and is destructive to the human spirit. Hatred of another person in humans is a constant seething anger.

Idiot.

Try thinking forward for once in your life. God does not hate as we hate, we who are His hate as He hates. The hate of the profane is not the same as the hate of God, of course not. But the hate of God is righteous hate, and those He has made righteous will hate all unrighteousness with righteous hatred. And love it with righteous love. Not just unrighteousness itself, but the unrighteous [people].

Why would we hate them FOR their wickedness when our hearts are just as wicked? This is the difference between US and God. We do not have a righteous position to judge from.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
-Romans 5:19

For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
-1 Corinthians 2:16

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
-2 Corinthians 5:21

He has made us righteous, giving us the position to judge according to His standard. We have access to His mind so that we may know His righteous standard and can judge accordingly.

Jesus even commanded that we judge righteously:

[Jesus]Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.[/Jesus]
-John 7:24

That's irrelevant. If the Psalm is describing the action you say it's describing, then the translator has used the wrong word.

EDIT: Also, check out Zeena's point about translations. I think that's really interesting, personally.

Idiot.

 

[Katie]

Could you further identify Jesus wife? I'm sure traditional christians would be most interested

Because you asked, of course I will share! I see his wife was Mary Magdalene ...

Anyways....with your hypothetical,....Jesus forgiveness would be more 'personal' of course,....yet his non-condemnation of this woman even if he did not know her...would be just as valid, assuming he knew by some real knowledge of the situation....and moved out with wisdom and compassion to emancipate the woman, and show the accusers that there themselves were not without sin. This event affected all involved, in their reconsideration of 'sin'.

Whilst I understand what you are saying, that they brought her to Jesus specifically to tempt him, to see if he would put into practice his teachings .. well, it could only be truly a temptation if it affected him personally. Then, who it is that brought her ... well, it seems obvious that it was his wife. From my own recent experiences, the emotions of it make it hard for me to view this particular scenario any other way, else there was no real temptation to see if Jesus would hold to his teachings when it was his own pride on the line.

Never have I had issues to forgive those who never needed my forgiveness or absolution in the first place. Always we struggle with forgiveness of others when we feel personally hurt by them.

Again, how does murder remedy murder????? - back to my former points. Striking back from revenge, just perpetuates the cycle of violence and is hardly reformative or redemptive. Killing a murderer doesnt bring back the victim, neither does it necessarily do any good for the criminal, unless he is given the opportunity to pay for his crimes (in other ways besides death), be reformed/rehabilitated so he can learn from his evil ways and carry on the path of a good, useful productive life. My last 2 links cover this further. oly

You are right that killing a murderer does not bring back the life of the one who was murdered ... but it does give back to the victim's family, their life.

Rehibilitation .... that rarely is ever something that is done in such cases as deliberate murder. They live their life that the rest of us pay for. Their life lived may be limited, but there is so much they get to do that those they have murdered don't get to.

You must think I see the death of a murderer w/out conscience as punishment ... I don't. I see it as the ONLY logical choice for TRULY promoting the good on earth.

A solution to this is to detain/quarantine such persons, therefore a life-sentence in such cases assure this person does not get back out to commit more crimes. While in prison, criminals ought to have all resources available to them towards their REFORMATION, so they can learn from their mistakes and change their orientation. As far as policies of letting some prisoners go after serving their alotted time(unless having a 'life in prison' sentence)....that will have to be figured for the greater good of all.

This so called solution doesn't seem at all to be seeking the greater good of all. One, the victim's families sometimes must continue to face the ordeal if/when the person comes up for parole (for many do get such a chance). There is always the chance for escape and then, as has happened before, other victims are made by these ppl. They, in fact, are only ever hardened even further by the enviroments they are put into.

Next, the murderer is experiencing life .. reading books; often communicating w/ those on the outside; etc etc whilst the person loved of by the family never gets to do any of that ... EVER AGAIN! THEN, there is also the fact of who is paying to keep this murderer alive??? we are ... the rest good ppl who work hard to maintain their life!


What message are we sending to the generations that are following us? Not a very good one given that now kids are killing even in the fit of emotions .. there is nothing in place that give them cause to consider before acting out. They look at what others endure after killing, and at the time, it doesn't seem all that bad .. and really, despite the limitations they will have, it isn't THAT bad. They don't see that taking the life of another is SERIOUS ... because we aren't treating it as though it is serious by catering and protecting the aggressive!

No, I am having a hard time seeing how we are seeking the greater good of all by keeping those who would take the life of another alive. Again, it is not SOCIETY they have wronged, but these victims and their families. Then, Jusitice or forgiveness belongs to the families and yet, we strip them of all their rights giving them no other choice but to carry around the greater burden of a sin THEY did not commit.

Thus far, this is how I see it ... I have yet to hear of even one benefit to keeping all these evil ppl alive and rather I HAVE seen all the consequences in turning our backs on victims and their right to pursue justice. Death is a natural part of life and so when one takes the life of another unjustly, what is the big deal that theirs be taken from them ... it is only TORTURE for THE GOOD that they are kept alive, no?

Seek the good, not the evil .... yet, in this way that you and so many others promote, isn't it seeking to promote the evil (which would not exist w/out the evil doer) and denying the good?

Try solving the cause and proliferation of "sin" first...within the human psyche/heart and the whole societal structure of mankind, - that might be a good start, instead of killing sinners. Again,...ask your self how sane and humane that is.

Some ppl are naturally born w/out conscience ... that is just a fact. For those that are born w/ conscience and driven to the point of wanting to kill, if they knew their own life would be taken from them if they take that of another, then maybe they would be saved as well as their victims from making such fatal mistakes by having Reason to pause and consider.

You act as though everyone is like you ... and whilst this sounds ideal what you say above, it just not is ever going to happen obviously. The only way that good will ever prevail on earth is when we are seeking the thing that is good and we hate the thing that is evil. Evil does NOT exist apart from the evil doer .. and thus, w/out the evil doer, the evil ceases to exist. But yet ... too many promote the life of the evil doer which is, in reality, promoting the evil, no?

What is Love's will for the sinner?

Love redeems, heals, restores, encourages, forgives, empowers, transforms. Love does no harm.

Depends ... as I said, I see a distinct line between sin and evil. A sinner can learn from the natural consequences ... the evil doer has no regard the way that the natural consequences affect them and are willing to let others pay as well. They harm others for their own pleasure and if they show signs of remorse, they only oblige for a time.

There are situations such as the following: A happy drunk who stays at home is choosing to harm only his own body .. but the drunk who gets behind the wheel places others in harm's way. Only the truly repentant will never do it again when he is shaken ... the one who says he's sorry after harming another and yet does it again is a danger to my children and those I love. What good is the forgiveness of the first who believed they were sorry to the 2nd victim?

I believe that forgiveness in the case of some can even help heal the sinner of the sin against their ownselves ... but this black and white picture you are painting (that society is agreeing with more and more) is denying that sometimes hate stemming from love DOES serve the greater good of Life in general.

An 'eye for an eye', 'tooth for a tooth' is stuck in an old sub-standard version of imposed karmic justice,....however, Jesus offers what he feels is a better way. True justice transcends human-concepts of such(primitive eye for eye measures) and facilitates a way of redemption and restoration.

Right ... let's look at what happened as a result of this picture that Jesus is portrayed in. The Jewish People have been slaughtered more than once and in horrific ways. Then, there are even otherwise rational people who have given up their own lives and even worse, the lives of their own children on the alter of this false idea of redemption. The good are the ones who are losing their lives as they surrender their precious gift (life) to those who have little regard for it.

Forgiveness is often denial, no? REAL AND A RATHER MORE PRODUCTIVE forgiveness would more be what we need from the victims of heinous crimes .. why? for protecting those that were evil from the victims right to pursue justice. We are so quick to say LET'S forgive those who have taken the life of another and to put the greater burden on those who were actually wronged by expecting them to forgive the criminal. The criminal gets by with (no pun intended) murder whilst the victims' families are the ones who are REALLY paying for it. I support their hate and their right to pursue justice as they see fit. I am aware I am in the minority here and if I am wrong, then things should start getting better .... any day now ... right?

 

[Katie]

"ME..."

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Where else did you think you got your morality?

PEACE!

If you want to go this route so as to make such comparisons between God and man, then Isaiah 45:7 KJV .... from the same place Jeffrey Dahmer received his? I don't view Genesis 1:27 as you must though ... and so, where did I get my morality (which I also will undoubtedly view differently than most) from? I got it from my willingness to question ... even to question my own self ... I got it because I want to seek the good in all things and not be just another who assumes they understand the thing that Good is based on what others have *told* me I should think. Psalm 38:20 KJV <---- the People are not the People because they are chosen of God, but because they have chosen to KNOW the only true God, the Creator of ALL mankind. That is why they are able to be the special creation that is set apart from the creation of mankind, Genesis 1:27.

So I am thinking thus far.

 

[MrRadish]

Idiot.

I'll take that as an ungracious concession.

 

[Town Heretic]

I'll take that as an ungracious concession.

So LH has his own ungracious concession stand...

I'll be here all week. lain:

 

[Son of Jack]

So LH has his own ungracious concession stand...

I'll be here all week. lain:

Here's your weak, watered-down lemonade, which I spit in, and your flat coke, you jerk.

I hope you have a crappy day...


lain:

 

[Town Heretic]

Here's your weak, watered-down lemonade, which I spit in, and your flat coke, you jerk.

I hope you have a crappy day...


lain:

Just make certain you bring the correct amount for your purchase folks, because LH won't make change...unless it's within two cents. lain:

 

[Lighthouse]

I'll take that as an ungracious concession.

Further proof that you don't know what you're talking about, which was why I called you an idiot in the first place.

 

[Alate_One]

Further proof that you don't know what you're talking about, which was why I called you an idiot in the first place.

If its really that he doesn't know what he's talking about, it should be easy for you to correct him no? Calling someone an idiot and stopping is just an admission you have no response to what they said.

 

[chrysostom]

If its really that he doesn't know what he's talking about, it should be easy for you to correct him no? Calling someone an idiot and stopping is just an admission you have no response to what they said.

I really hate it when you guys respond to him

 

[Lighthouse]

If its really that he doesn't know what he's talking about, it should be easy for you to correct him no? Calling someone an idiot and stopping is just an admission you have no response to what they said.

No, my point is that he's too much of an idiot to understand correction, so what's the point?

Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
-Proverbs 26:4

 

[Daniel H.]

I can understand hating a practice or a sin, but a person . . . I don't see much in the way of scripture supporting that.

This is what Jesus said.

Matthew 5

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

God is a God of mercy even the worst of us may be redeemed, why should I hate someone that might someday come to Christ?

When can love be bad, save if you love that which is evil?

Good conversation everyone.

I enthusiastically agree with those who hold the view that it is appropriate to hate an actual person at times, not just their sin. (e.g. like if someone murdered your child) I think it is clear that God at times hates people and that the Bible shows instances where man is correct to hate actual people as well.

I was sharing my thoughts on this with some guys at lunch and they took the typical "hate the sin love the sinner" position. But, as almost always happens in conversations like this, at least with me, they brought up, at least to me, one good point.

They asked, "In light of Jesus teaching in Matthew 5, if it is in fact still ok to hate now as NT believers, what sins are "hateable" sins and which are not?"

I thought that that was a pretty good question. I could use some help answering that especially in light of these verses as well.

Proverbs 19:11
A man's wisdom gives him patience; it is to his glory to overlook an offense.

Proverbs 12:16
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.



IMO, In Mat 5. When Jesus says "love your enemies" he isn't talking about e.g. someone who murdered your child and is unrepentant. Rather he is talking about those people who are against us but have never really actually sinned against us perhaps, like the "jerk" at work who is always giving us a hard time and makes life difficult for us but has never really actually sinned against us.

Does that make sense?

 

[Daniel H.]

Sigh. Have you read this thread???

That's right!

Hate and love are not mutually exclusive!

Love can be a good thing or a bad thing.
Likewise...
Hate can be a good thing or a bad thing.

Just as God says....

A time to love, And a time to hate - Ecclesiastes 3:8

I think that love and hate are not mutually exclusive as well, but I can't think of any scriptures off the top of my head to back this up.

Does anyone know any verses that teach that love and hate are not mutually exclusive?

Thanks.

P.S. Please respond to my previous post as well.