toldailytopic: Fighting Sioux: Should the University of North Dakota change their mas

kmoney

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Why?

Since when does one group of people have the right to determine what another group of people can or cannot say?

If I want to start a basketball team and call my team the "Angry Midgets" I should have that right, regardless of how it might offend short people. Short folks would have the right to not attend my games, or buy my products. Therefore my choice of mascot might be a poor marketing decision. But we should let the free market decide that, not the courts.

I agree with you to some extent and I'm not sure how much involvement I want from judges, legislators, and the NCAA in cases like this. But, if the Sioux nation wants he name changed then I think it would be nice for the school to respect them and change it.

But from what Rex said, they are mostly ok with it.
 

rexlunae

New member
I agree with you to some extent and I'm not sure how much involvement I want from judges, legislators, and the NCAA in cases like this.

The issue has been stewing literally for decades, but it's been spiraling up in the last couple of years. The NCAA basically told us we have to change it or lose the ability to host post-season events...which is bad for the whole school. We had school presidents decide to change the name in the past, and that turned out badly for them. So the state board of higher education decided to change it. And as a result, the state legislature passed a law requiring us to keep the name. Of course, that didn't change the NCAA's position on anything, so we were pretty well between a rock and a hard place. So we got the law repealed. And now people are trying to get the state constitution changed to mandate the nickname.

But, if the Sioux nation wants he name changed then I think it would be nice for the school to respect them and change it.

The problem has been that the tribes weren't able to organize a vote in support of the nickname in time to meet the NCAA's arbitrarily imposed deadline.

The NCAA has not been a very good player here. But then really no one has. And it is plain absurd for the legislature or the state constitution to get involved.
 

vegascowboy

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Absolutely not. People need to get over it. The same thing happened at my Alma mater...the University of Utah. Their mascot is the Utes. So called "politically correct" advocates said it was distasteful and racist to use an Indian as their mascot.

So they took the images away. The University used to have a Ute Indian boy, named "Hoyo", as its mascot. Now they have a hawk named Swoop instead, because "it is less offensive to Native Americans."

They irony is that the Ute Tribe themselves approved and fought to keep the images. They were honored to have their heritage represented.
 

kmoney

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The issue has been stewing literally for decades, but it's been spiraling up in the last couple of years. The NCAA basically told us we have to change it or lose the ability to host post-season events...which is bad for the whole school. We had school presidents decide to change the name in the past, and that turned out badly for them. So the state board of higher education decided to change it. And as a result, the state legislature passed a law requiring us to keep the name. Of course, that didn't change the NCAA's position on anything, so we were pretty well between a rock and a hard place. So we got the law repealed. And now people are trying to get the state constitution changed to mandate the nickname.
Sounds like quite a mess. I hope the NCAA doesn't actually stop you from participating in the post season. :down:

The problem has been that the tribes weren't able to organize a vote in support of the nickname in time to meet the NCAA's arbitrarily imposed deadline.
I thought I read something that the one tribe refused to participate in the vote?

The NCAA has not been a very good player here. But then really no one has. And it is plain absurd for the legislature or the state constitution to get involved.
Having a law to mandate the college keep a certain name does seem strange.
 

The Barbarian

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I suppose they could emulate the Rhode Island School of Design, which went for a less controversial mascot.

(Warning: not work safe to check there)
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
I'm willing to bet all the people in this thread complaining about things being "politically correct" only feel that way about things that are not offensive to THEM.

I think we should be willing to cut native Americans a lot of slack since they were so poorly treated by this country for so long.

Why not have teams that have Native American logos (with approval from the appropriate groups) donate some of their profits to programs to benefit Native Americans?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
My husband is Native American. He'd call you racist.

I'm racist for stating facts? How many other LIVING groups of people do we use as mascots? It's discriminatory because of that. Unless it's approved by the particular tribes involved why is it okay? Not saying it couldn't be done respectfully but the history of this sort of thing isn't that at all.
 

rexlunae

New member
Sounds like quite a mess. I hope the NCAA doesn't actually stop you from participating in the post season. :down:

It's up to the state. We're going to have a state-wide election which decides that. If we're kept out, it will be our own collective fault.

I thought I read something that the one tribe refused to participate in the vote?

Not that I know of, but I could be wrong. One tribe is actually suing to keep the name.
 

MaryContrary

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I'm racist for stating facts? How many other LIVING groups of people do we use as mascots? It's discriminatory because of that. Unless it's approved by the particular tribes involved why is it okay? Not saying it couldn't be done respectfully but the history of this sort of thing isn't that at all.
That's nothing at all to do with what you said. You said...
I think we should be willing to cut native Americans a lot of slack since they were so poorly treated by this country for so long.
Could you have been more patronizing? Hell, I'm offended at this and it isn't even aimed at me!
Curious, how is respect and consideration racist?
The patronizing, condescending attitude toward a particular race is racist. Not in any way respectful or considerate.

Seriously, what the hell is the matter with you people? It's honestly getting to the point where I have to accept the only racists and bigots left in the world are the ones so busy trying to protect those poor, disadvantaged, inferior people out there from racists and bigots. How blind you are to your own assumed superiority! :AMR:
 

Tolken

New member
"...and it isn't even aimed at me!"

That is the most salient point made in your rant, you don't speak for native americans.
 

PureX

Well-known member
I think these universities that want to use the images or names of other people as team names and mascots should ASK PERMISSION to do so. My guess is that in most cases, the Native Americans in question would be honored by the idea. I think they feel insulted, however, by these colleges just presuming to adopt their names and image without permission, as if they were just another species of animal. And I don't blame them. It was the arrogance that offended people, not necessarily the use of their name and image.
 

rexlunae

New member
I think these universities that want to use the images or names of other people as team names and mascots should ASK PERMISSION to do so. My guess is that in most cases, the Native Americans in question would be honored by the idea. I think they feel insulted, however, by these colleges just presuming to adopt their names and image without permission, as if they were just another species of animal. And I don't blame them. It was the arrogance that offended people, not necessarily the use of their name and image.

UND got permission to use the name decades ago. But there has been a low level of opposition for just as long.
 

The Barbarian

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I'm racist for stating facts? How many other LIVING groups of people do we use as mascots? It's discriminatory because of that. Unless it's approved by the particular tribes involved why is it okay? Not saying it couldn't be done respectfully but the history of this sort of thing isn't that at all.

I knew this Native American comic, ("take my country - please") who had a shtick wherein the Indians won, and sports teams were named after white people.

"The Milwaukee Polacks" was the least offensive of them. Some of it I wouldn't say even among friends. His point was partially, that the terms were often ones made up by others, and consider to be slurs by the tribes involved.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
The patronizing, condescending attitude toward a particular race is racist. Not in any way respectful or considerate.
How is that condescending or patronizing? I hold no such emotions towards Native Americans so I really don't know how you've managed to ascribe them to me. I have the utmost respect for native peoples and their culture.

Seriously, what the hell is the matter with you people? It's honestly getting to the point where I have to accept the only racists and bigots left in the world are the ones so busy trying to protect those poor, disadvantaged, inferior people out there from racists and bigots. How blind you are to your own assumed superiority!
You are really lost here. You're having trouble distinguishing the facts on the ground from people's inherent abilities.

The facts are the poverty rate is far higher in Native American communities 25% as compared to 15% nationally at the height of our recent economic slowdown. Now you can ascribe that to inherent inferiority (the definition of racism) or to past history.

The recent Republican talking point with respect to poverty has been that the poor are simply lazy and that's why they are poor. If you combine that kind of thinking with the facts on the ground that certain groups of people have higher rates of poverty than others, that leads to racist thinking.

I think your issues may be from believing the talking points so that when the facts are brought to your attention, you call the person bringing them, racist.

Then you make the even wilder leap and ascribe someone's desire to help people that are (by the numbers) disadvantaged as "racist". This makes no sense whatsoever. Not every Native American is disadvantaged, not every white person is advantaged, anyone that understands statistics at all knows this. But, by the numbers, there is a pattern. The whites in the worst situations are generally better off than the average person of color.

I do NOT believe any of this is reflective of an inherent inferiority or superiority, but that history has an incredibly long lag time and difficult to escape. Whites get advantages other races do not simply by virtue of history. Simple things like better credit rating, home equity, having your parents give/help buy a car for you near adulthood. White children don't earn any of these things but they benefit from them because their parents have them and their parents benefited from the same advantages and it takes only a few generations to go back where it was public policy to oppress people of color. During that same time most whites were building family assets.

Time will help in ameliorating inequality from history, but there's no reason to throw up our hands and pretend we shouldn't try to address these kinds of problems with public policy since it was public policy that created them in the first place. The respect comes in when these decisions are made in collaboration with the groups that are meant to be helped which is, I believe, the current trend in policy making of this type.
 

PureX

Well-known member
UND got permission to use the name decades ago. But there has been a low level of opposition for just as long.
People can change their minds. If the tribe that gave permission years ago has changed their mind, they should be respected. BUT, if changing the school's name costs money, as it likely will, then the tribe should have to cover those costs.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Excellent posts by the minority that view this as a matter of respect and it appears with justification. Here is a link:

http://gozips.uakron.edu/~dw2/sociology_of_sport_journal.pdf

Wow, that's an amazing article. After reading it I think all of these mascots should be removed since they all promote stereotypes (albeit ones that are viewed as 'positive' by whites) and are not seen by Native Americans as respectful.

Yay for sociological research. :)
 
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