toldailytopic: Did Jesus die for all men?

[SeraphimsCherub]

He died for "All" His "Own", who were "chosen" In Him By The Father In Eternity to be their Christ in time for "All" the sin's that each and every individual who came before Christ which were His, and after Christ which are His throughout the entire history of the world!

Ephesians 1:4-6 (KJV)Eph 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Being Chosen "By" GOD In Christ, & being "predestinated" "By" GOD In Christ. Is the very definition of His "Grace"! Because the full sentence of this passage of Scripture begins in verse 4, and end's at verse 6. The end of vs. 5: according to the good pleasure of his will and beginning of verse 6.:"To the praise of the glory of his grace"
To the praise of the glory of his grace
To the praise of the glory of his grace
To the praise of the glory of his grace

 

[CabinetMaker]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for June 9th, 2011 12:52 PM

toldailytopic: Did Jesus die for all men?

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Assuming God created ALL men (which is a pretty safe assumption given that God created ALL men) why wouldn't Jesus sacrifice Himself for the redemption of ALL those whom God created?

 

[ICameBack]

What if I did? Would you continue to seek truth, recognizing your church missed it on at least one point (there are others), or would you just give up on the whole Christian venture? Are you secure enough in Christ to question your and your church's cherished doctrines and acknowledge your error or would that be just too hard to accept? Would you still be able to love your Reformed brethren after realizing they taught you wrong doctrine? Would you still be able to love yourself knowing you had been misled?

I see where you are coming from, having left the RCC and Christ for dogmatic and doctrinal issues, and turning to anti-theism (which more though not all atheists and agnostics would categorize themselves if they were honest to themselves and not as dismissive).
Now? Nothing will shake me from my faith in Christ! I love God, my redeemer and will follow him and be steadfast all my days. Bickering over doctrine only serves to divide the Body of Christ. My faith expands with Scripture but is rooted in a personal and intimate relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ.

Not that you were asking me

 

[Nang]

Assuming God created ALL men (which is a pretty safe assumption given that God created ALL men) why wouldn't Jesus sacrifice Himself for the redemption of ALL those whom God created?

God is not only merciful, but God is also just.

The sin of men and angels MUST be punished.

Jesus Christ was punished in the place of many, many souls . . . but not for all men nor angels.

It was pure grace that God decreed to provide His only begotten Son, to spare an elect humanity. Instead of insisting Christ came for all and died for all, we should be giving Him praise and adoration for saving any at all. The entire human race deserves death and consignment to hell, and it is amazing grace that some are saved through the death of Jesus Christ.

Hell is real and serves the purpose of divine justice.

To argue otherwise, or speculate, is to argue and speculate about the wisdom, and righteousness of God Almighty.

Nang

 

[Krsto]

Krsto,

You can attempt to destroy my faith, if that is your heart's desire, but you will have to destroy the Holy Scriptures to do so, for they are what my faith is founded on.

See my motto:


< - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Destroy your faith? That's what you think is my heart's desire? Only if your "faith" is in a doctrine and not in Christ. I might then want to destroy that faith, but only if it is false doctrine. If your faith is in Christ, if you are rooted in him, if you have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, if you have been born again (or born from above), if you really know Christ and God in an experiential way apart from mere doctrine, then you should be free to examine what you believe in light of scripture, that is, recognize that you (and your church) may have interpreted it incorrectly, and thus accept any evidence that would indicate that you have. That is simply being humble before God, "Not leaning on our own understanding," as the scriptures teach us, and allowing the Holy Spirit the freedom to teach us something new, something different than what we have always believed. If you are really a Christian, and I'm not doubting that you are, then doing all this will only strengthen your faith, not destroy it.

I have gone through this process many times, the first time was when, not long after getting saved at a Lutheran university and learning about the Christian faith from their standpoint, I went to a Baptist church and had my theology about baptism by sprinkling challenged. But I knew no matter how I had been wrongly taught and wrongly believed while hanging with the Lutherans or how wrongly the Baptists might teach me and me believing their wrong doctrine (assuming they might have some), I was in God's hands and he would lead me into all truth and the truth would set me free. I simply needed to trust in God and then having my doctrines challenged would not destory my faith, but only strengthen it.

If you are afraid of having your faith challenged why then are you on TOL?

 

[CabinetMaker]

God is not only merciful, but God is also just.

The sin of men and angels MUST be punished.

So you also reject the completed work of Christ on the cross. That's sad.

Jesus Christ was punished in the place of many, many souls . . . but not for all men nor angels.

No idea about the angles sins but John 3:16 certainly indicates that Jesus's sacrifice is for all men. That doesn't mean that all men will acknowledge that, but that does not change what Jesus did for all men.

It was pure grace that God decreed to provide His only begotten Son, to spare an elect humanity. Instead of insisting Christ came for all and died for all, we should be giving Him praise and adoration for saving any at all. The entire human race deserves death and consignment to hell, and it is amazing grace that some are saved through the death of Jesus Christ.

Doesn't make sense. You are saying that it was not possible for Jesus to atone for the sins of ALL men, that He could only die for the sins a select few. Is God really that limited in your view?

Hell is real and serves the purpose of divine justice.

Justice but not for sin. Jesus dealt with the issue of sin once and for all. Hell is for those who reject God and do not want to be with Him.

To argue otherwise, or speculate, is to argue and speculate about the wisdom, and righteousness of God Almighty.

Nang

To speculate otherwise is nothing more than an argument against a man made theology, Calvinism in your case. It in no way detracts from God and who He is.

 

[Tico]

If you do a word search of "choose" throughout the bible, you will find the word and its derivatives are used only in conjunction with the legal purposes and redemptive actions of God . . . not of sinful men.

If the Holy Scriptures themselves preclude the notion of men "choosing God" (see Romans 3:10-11; 19), who can contradict the word of God?

Nang

The wicked can seek and find God.

Deut 4:27 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you. 28And there you will serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. 29But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Psalm 78:32 In spite of this they still sinned, And did not believe in His wondrous works. 33 Therefore their days He consumed in futility, And their years in fear. 34 When He slew them, then they sought Him; And they returned and sought earnestly for God.

 

[Krsto]

I see where you are coming from, having left the RCC and Christ for dogmatic and doctrinal issues, and turning to anti-theism (which more though not all atheists and agnostics would categorize themselves if they were honest to themselves and not as dismissive).
Now? Nothing will shake me from my faith in Christ! I love God, my redeemer and will follow him and be steadfast all my days. Bickering over doctrine only serves to divide the Body of Christ. My faith expands with Scripture but is rooted in a personal and intimate relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ.

Not that you were asking me

Your case is a little different than most since you left a cult. It seems those who were in cults like the RCC which teach they are the only ones with truth it's easy to become disallusioned with the whole Christian venture and give up on the whole lot until such time as the Holy Spirit draws you back into relationship sans all the nonsense you had to work out of your system after leaving. It's encouraging to see you eventually did find your way back to a faith so much more genuine since it is based on knowing God rather than just knowing about God.

Amazing the difference, isn't it?

Bickering is hard to avoid but I do believe discussion does have its place in helping us mature into the image of Christ. It doesn't always go the way we want of feel is useful, but it's better than no discussion at all. I've been in environments where real discussion is not encouraged and find the people there to be lemmings blown about by whatever wind of doctrine seems like truth at the time.

 

[ICameBack]

Your case is a little different than most since you left a cult. It seems those who were in cults like the RCC which teach they are the only ones with truth it's easy to become disallusioned with the whole Christian venture and give up on the whole lot until such time as the Holy Spirit draws you back into relationship sans all the nonsense you had to work out of your system after leaving. It's encouraging to see you eventually did find your way back to a faith so much more genuine since it is based on knowing God rather than just knowing about God.

Amazing the difference, isn't it?

Bickering is hard to avoid but I do believe discussion does have its place in helping us mature into the image of Christ. It doesn't always go the way we want of feel is useful, but it's better than no discussion at all. I've been in environments where real discussion is not encouraged and find the people there to be lemmings blown about by whatever wind of doctrine seems like truth at the time.

I can't find the quote anywhere but a favorite Philosophy professor many years ago quoted, I believe Aquinas, to the effect: "a questioning faith is a sublime faith"

 

[Nang]

Destroy your faith? That's what you think is my heart's desire? Only if your "faith" is in a doctrine and not in Christ. I might then want to destroy that faith, but only if it is false doctrine. If your faith is in Christ, if you are rooted in him, if you have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, if you have been born again (or born from above), if you really know Christ and God in an experiential way apart from mere doctrine, then you should be free to examine what you believe in light of scripture, that is, recognize that you (and your church) may have interpreted it incorrectly, and thus accept any evidence that would indicate that you have. That is simply being humble before God, "Not leaning on our own understanding," as the scriptures teach us, and allowing the Holy Spirit the freedom to teach us something new, something different than what we have always believed. If you are really a Christian, and I'm not doubting that you are, then doing all this will only strengthen your faith, not destroy it.

If you really want to have a personal debate with me, are you willing to commit to a "One on One"? Knight can set it up, according to agreed upon terms established between us.

I have gone through this process many times, the first time was when, not long after getting saved at a Lutheran university and learning about the Christian faith from their standpoint, I went to a Baptist church and had my theology about baptism by sprinkling challenged. But I knew no matter how I had been wrongly taught and wrongly believed while hanging with the Lutherans or how wrongly the Baptists might teach me and me believing their wrong doctrine (assuming they might have some), I was in God's hands and he would lead me into all truth and the truth would set me free. I simply needed to trust in God and then having my doctrines challenged would not destory my faith, but only strengthen it.

If you are afraid of having your faith challenged why then are you on TOL?

I don't know where you get the idea that I am afraid to have my faith challenged.

Instead, if you are interested, I am challenging you to debate, "One on One."

I will even let you pick the topic of what you desire to prove.

Nang

 

[Nick M]

God is not only merciful, but God is also just.

Yep.

Jesus Christ was punished in the place of many, many souls . . . but not for all men nor angels.

What does Paul say about to whom the free gift is offered? Here is the hint, pull your answer from it.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

 

[Nang]

Yep.



What does Paul say about to whom the free gift is offered? Here is the hint, pull your answer from it.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

One should keep reading, for verse 19 quantifies and further clarifies verse 18:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19

This precludes interpreting Romans 5:18-19 as teaching a universal or unlimited atonement The "all men" prove to be "many," depending upon whether souls, by faith, share in the resurrection of Jesus Christ to everlasting life. (I Corinthians 15:21-23)

Reading these verses, one must either hold to Limited Atonement or Universalism. One or the other. There is no middle position that can be taken.

Nang

 

[Nick M]

Reading these verses, one must either hold to Limited Atonement or Universalism. One or the other. There is no middle position that can be taken.

Nang

Nag, answer the question. To whom is the free gift offered?

 

[Nang]

Nag, answer the question. To whom is the free gift offered?

You are saying that salvation is universal. Christ died for all men. But you will deny being a Universalist, and try to find a middle ground which attempts to explain why, if Jesus died for all, only many are guaranteed everlasting life. Your "middle ground" is attributing the success of the cross and justification, to the free-will choices of sinners, which does not stand the scrutiny of the entire bible.

Such is a gospel of faith plus human works in order to find everlasting life.

I am saying that the "all men" is limited to the "many" Christ represented in His life, death, and resurrection. These many souls are the ones given to the Son by the Father before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

My gospel message is "many" souls are justified by faith, alone. Faith in the works of Jesus Christ only, and not their own. (Ephesians 2:9)

Edited to add: I do not believe salvation is universally "offered" to all men. Multitudes have perished without ever hearing about Jesus Christ.

 

[Nick M]

The free gift is to all men, you enemy of all righteousness. Not all accept. Hence the verse saying many are saved not all. But the gift is for all, but most reject it. God allows you to believe him.

 

[Nick M]

You are saying that salvation is universal.

No I didn't. I said "to whom is the free gift offered?" Just answer the question, and then I will tear the rest of your drivel apart.

 

[Nang]

No I didn't. I said "to whom is the free gift offered?" Just answer the question, and then I will tear the rest of your drivel apart.

See my previous post where I have added an edit.

 

[Nang]

The free gift is to all men, you enemy of all righteousness. Not all accept. Hence the verse saying many are saved not all. But the gift is for all, but most reject it. God allows you to believe him.

How can souls "accept" what they have not heard?

 

[Nang]

The free gift is to all men, you enemy of all righteousness. Not all accept. Hence the verse saying many are saved not all. But the gift is for all, but most reject it. God allows you to believe him.

Romans 5:19 does not say what you are claiming. Paul says ". . . many will be made righteous."

Sinners are not made righteous, except through the blood shed of Jesus Christ (forgiveness of all sins) and through the spiritual "calling" of His Holy Spirit to faith and repentance.

So "many are made righteous" strictly by the works of God; not the works of the sinners.

Faith is the "free gift" that is bestowed by God; not a virtue that resides in sinful men. There is no righteous man, because there is no man that harbors innate faith in God. (Romans 3:10-11)

Rather, all sinners hate God and are cursed with enmity against God. There is no possible way a soul in this "dead" condition can conjure up faith to believe to the saving and raising of his soul.

Spiritual principle:

We only love God, because He first loved us. I John 4:19

 

[Krsto]

If you really want to have a personal debate with me, are you willing to commit to a "One on One"? Knight can set it up, according to agreed upon terms established between us.



I don't know where you get the idea that I am afraid to have my faith challenged.

Instead, if you are interested, I am challenging you to debate, "One on One."

I will even let you pick the topic of what you desire to prove.

Nang

I'm game. We can pick up where we left off at your post #76.

This topic isn't my area of expertise so I may not be at the top of the learning curve but discussion is a good way to learn.