toldailytopic: Christian nation. Did America's founding fathers intend for the USA to

[Gurucam]

Wait for it ....

AGREED! :cheers:

America was clearly intended to be a Nation that was a safe harbor for those looking to escape persecutions of other lands, be it religious/racial/class etc. It was meant to offer freedom from persecution so that the individual had the right to choose their own personal path of preference .. though, it was not intended to offer freedom to those who would like to make the choice of what the right path is for everyone else. So then, how are we doing?

Not bad at all. Or better!

 

[Gurucam]

Matthew 23:9 says we should not call anyone father but our Father in Heaven

How do you refer to the man who donated the sperm to your mother for your conception?

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

Your point supports the affirmative. Your point suggests that they were Christians.

Christianity is not a religion, organized or other wise.

Christianity is a group of people, described as the body of Christ, who are not led by any written dogma or priests but directly, precisely, privately and individually by the unseen (none physically) Spirit of God from within their own hearts, in real time, every time and all the time.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm......................?????????????


But what you just said, is exactly what religion is.


Merriam-Webster Dictionary

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective


Are you saying you don't hold a particular belief?

Are you saying you don't worship Jesus who you think is God?

Are you saying you don't have certain principles based on what you believe?


You know you fit the word religion in every sense of the word, just like everyone else who believes in God.

Why the denial? What's wrong with your religion?

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

How do you refer to the man who donated the sperm to your mother for your conception?

You know in that passage, Jesus (pbuh) is referring to a spiritual father.

 

[Gurucam]

But most religions believe this, so, how does that give any indication that a Christian ideology was used?

If we are going to present it like that, then lest just say it was built on a variety of religions.

The documents they came up with made it clear that NO religion shall or did play a role in the government.

-

Religion is men under guidance by other men who were committed to that task, using physically discerned ideals and laws, like Moses-ism which includes the Commandments. Spirituality is men under direct, individualized and precise guidance by God, through His Spirit (which is the same as the Spirit of Jesus Christ) as discerned by one within one's own heart or spirit, in real time, every time, all the time. This is Christianity. Moses-ism is a religion. Christianity is a Spiritual tradition. One is rooted in people who can only discern things through their physical side. The other is rooted in those who can discern things through their spirit side as well. ​ -

 

[Gurucam]

You know in that passage, Jesus (pbuh) is referring to a spiritual father.

Don't we have an earth father and a Heavenly Father?

Can we not have a father for things of Cesar? A father who is tending to be Christian and so directly aiding the descent of God's kingdom of heaven to earth?

 

[Gurucam]

You know in that passage, Jesus (pbuh) is referring to a spiritual father.

In any conception one or two fathers must participate.

Where sexual procreation is led only by urgings of the flesh only humans are participating, even if they are doing so under regulations by Moses ideals and laws. This brings forth a 'child of the flesh'. This child has only one father who is from earth. In his life time he can strive to become an adopted 'child of God'.

On the other hand, where sexual procreation results from the physical expression of the urgings of love which has arisen and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within the hearts of the couple for each other, then God has participated together with the humans involved. This bring forth a 'child of God'. This child, from birth, has two fathers, one from heaven and one from earth.

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

Don't we have an earth father and a Heavenly Father?

Can we not have a father for things of Cesar? A father who is tending to be Christian and so directly aiding the descent of God's kingdom of heaven to earth?

What kind of father do you think Jesus (pbuh) was talking about?

It's clear to me, but what are you thinking?

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

-

Religion is men under guidance by other men who were committed to that task, using physically discerned ideals and laws, like Moses-ism which includes the Commandments. Spirituality is men under direct, individualized and precise guidance by God, through His Spirit (which is the same as the Spirit of Jesus Christ) as discerned by one within one's own heart or spirit, in real time, every time, all the time. This is Christianity. Moses-ism is a religion. Christianity is a Spiritual tradition. One is rooted in people who can only discern things through their physical side. The other is rooted in those who can discern things through their spirit side as well. ​ -

Stop it, Christianity is a religion, just like Islam, Judaism etc.

Come on now.

 

[Katie]

It doesn't and I am sorry I posted that
I did it because of this thread

no need to apologize in your response to me as I understand what it is to get frustrated by others on here to the point where I carry it around with me often without even realizing it. of course, this would account for my having come here less to discuss (my own lack of patience lol). Hopefully those posters will come to see that some of the ideals they are carrying around are far more worthy of discussion given that they (the ideals) have been used to promote to a dangerous level hate and violence in the world (not by the posters necessarily ... just in general).

You know, the issue they are having with you in that thread is honestly so trivial that it is best to let it go .. unless I am missing some more serious reason in which it must be discussed. Who knows. Anyway ... thank you for responding to my curiosity.

 

[Aner]

Did America's founding fathers intend for the USA to be a Christian nation?

NOPE

Read the Preamble -

"We, THE PEOPLE, in order to form a more perfect union...."

Not too complex if you care about reality.... rather than partisanship.

 

[Lighthouse]

Anyone who believes most of them were not Christians is daft. They founded this country on principles in line with Christianity because that is what they believed. But they did not intend for any religion to be established. They stated as much. They did not intend a theocracy. And it is clear they did not intend theonomy, for they did not make any resemblance to hard fast rules in line with such. If they had the death penalty would exist in all states, no exceptions. And would be the punishment for at least murder, rape and kidnapping.

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

Anyone who believes most of them were not Christians is daft. They founded this country on principles in line with Christianity because that is what they believed. But they did not intend for any religion to be established. They stated as much. They did not intend a theocracy. And it is clear they did not intend theonomy, for they did not make any resemblance to hard fast rules in line with such. If they had the death penalty would exist in all states, no exceptions. And would be the punishment for at least murder, rape and kidnapping.

What principles are these that were Christian specific?

Where do you get the ideal that most of them were Christians? I'd like to see an academic source for that one. Please do!


The guys are telling you in every founding document that America was in no way shape or form founded on Christianity. In fact, some of the stronger founding fathers made it clear what they thought about Christianity.

Article XI.

As the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion of Musslemen--and as the said states never have entered into any war with Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between two countries.

Article XII continues

In case of any dispute arising from a violation of any of the articles of this treaty, no appeal shall be made to arms; nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever...........................


The 1796 treaty with Tripoli was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.




Doesn't get much clearer than that

 

[Lighthouse]

What principles are these that were Christian specific?

Where do you get the ideal that most of them were Christians? I'd like to see an academic source for that one. Please do!


The guys are telling you in every founding document that America was in no way shape or form founded on Christianity. In fact, some of the stronger founding fathers made it clear what they thought about Christianity.

Article XI.

As the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion of Musslemen--and as the said states never have entered into any war with Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between two countries.

Article XII continues

In case of any dispute arising from a violation of any of the articles of this treaty, no appeal shall be made to arms; nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever...........................


The 1796 treaty with Tripoli was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.




Doesn't get much clearer than that

Did I not just say that this country was not founded on the Christian religion?

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

Did I not just say that this country was not founded on the Christian religion?

You said principles that are Christian, what are they? And you said, you feel most of the founding fathers where Christians and anyone who thinks the opposite has to be 'daft' (foolish or stupid)" Sounds like you are implying that liberty and justice are principles that belong only to Christianity. If that is what you are saying, then in a round about way that brings us back to saying that it was founded on the Christian religion. If those principles are not limited to the Christian faith then how are you calling them Christian principles?

Sounds like the principles are just ones of good ethics which you can find in and out of religion.


Just calling it like you wrote it.

 

[Lighthouse]

You said principles that are Christian, what are they?

No I didn't. Maybe you should learn to read.

 

[Cracked]

Some of them did, I'd bet, but certainly not all of them.

If they had all wanted this, they would have set up some sort of theocracy. They didn't.

Some Christians want to revise history just like they want to meddle in science. It is garbage, for the most part.

However, some atheist/secular types would also like to meddle in history - and they are fools as well.

 

[UseSomeCommonSense]

No I didn't. Maybe you should learn to read.

"Anyone who believes most of them were not Christians is daft. They founded this country on principles in line with Christianity because that is what they believed. But they did not intend for any religion to be established. They stated as much. They did not intend a theocracy. And it is clear they did not intend theonomy, for they did not make any resemblance to hard fast rules in line with such. If they had the death penalty would exist in all states, no exceptions. And would be the punishment for at least murder, rape and kidnapping."


". They founded this country on principles in line with Christianity because that is what they believed. "


Uh, yea, you did imply that America was founded on Christian principles.

And your sentence prior set the stage for your assertion: "Anyone who believes most of them were not Christians is daft.

lain:

 

[Nick M]

Of coursethey are. They said so in our Nation's founding and most important document.

Were they perfect? No way.

:mock: nocommonsense

Christianity is not religion. But many who claim to be Christain are certainly religous. See, you are going to hell up and you try to please God for righteousness sake. In its basic form, that is religion. I don't do that, nor do Christians.

 

[nicholsmom]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for February 26th, 2010 10:56 AM

toldailytopic: Christian nation. Did America's founding fathers intend for the USA to be a Christian nation?

A distinction should be made between the government and the nation. The US Constitution is a blue print for the operation of our government - specifically laying down the powers granted and those denied our government. The government was designed to not interfere in the lives of the citizens any more than was needed to manage the goals given in the preamble: "...to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity..."

While our government is not a "Christian" one, it was specifically designed to govern a nation of Christian - or at least quasi-Christian - people. John Adams said, "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

Here are a few more quotes from founders:

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin:
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

Alexander Hamilton:
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

Patrick Henry:
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

- more​

So no, the founders did not intend for our government to be Christian, but yes the founders did intend for our nation to be Christian - or at least a religious people who hold to the moral teachings of Christ.

Sometimes more is more, TH