toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

[Ktoyou]

I'm not sure what you believe but I probably believed it at one time so am informed so if that's the truth I was open to it but have been persuaded by the scriptures of what I believe now. I may be getting older and uglier but I'm better informed now than I was then.

Maybe you think more independently? Do you believe personal thought is better than the theology of those who made it their life's' work? I do not believe this way. I trust those who have the calling to carry on God's message and I am not one of them. I know what I know and believe what I believe, not what I wish to believe.

 

[Krsto]

Maybe you think more independently? Do you believe personal thought is better than the theology of those who made it their life's' work? I do not believe this way. I trust those who have the calling to carry on God's message and I am not one of them. I know what I know and believe what I believe, not what I wish to believe.

I am one of those who has made it my life's work. I have been burned too many times by trusting others before I examined things for myself. When Evangelicals say we take the bible to be our rule of faith and practice I take that very seriously, which is why I don't hold the historic creeds as having the final say in my interpretation of the bible. I'm going to examine them against the Word every time.

You think like a Catholic, I think like an Evangelical. I guess that's just the way God has called us to be. You probably shouldn't function like I do and I shouldn't function as you do. I'm happy with the gift God has given me. Are you happy with yours?

 

[Totton Linnet]

No, you've had longer, but federal headship is only an issue with atheists who don't believe man is accountable to a God. Christians agree that God has the right to do what he wants with us, but for us the question is what does God do with the unsaved, and if we make one conclusion, that they suffer eternally, is that in accordance to the love and justice of God, and if said eternal suffering was God's plan for each person who goes there is that in accordance to the love and justice of God. For those who accept Calvinism, they have to say it is consistant with a God of love and justice. So they have to accept a very strange, to put it mildly, concept of love and justice.

You are such a dishonest person, when I called you out for attempting to morph this thread into one promulgating your universalism, you denied it somewhat indignantly...but that is exactly what you have done. Been to Sophia recently?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You are such a dishonest person, when I called you out for attempting to morph this thread into one promulgating your universalism, you denied it somewhat indignantly...but that is exactly what you have done. Been to Sophia recently?

Why accuse? You do not understand.

If we study the plight of the wicked then we can have a case of their being punished and their destruction in the lake of fire.

However when we look at the judgment of the sheep and goats, we find that it is due to their treatment of the righteous that the sheep are then saved from going to hell and the opposite to the goats.

These days I let people bless me in the way that the sheep do, while not hiding from them my love and service with joy of my Lord.

God knows He gives them much opportunity for those sheep to do so--

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

and--

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.


LA.

 

[Totton Linnet]

How is he? He was one of the original translators so please explain why. If the punishment is everlasting and conscious then I'd say that would amount to torment, wouldn't you? So hardly that much of a 'twist'. If you're familiar with any of the original Greek at all you'll find that 'aionian' doesn't necessarily translate as 'eternal' to start with. Some of the more literal concordances reflect this.



Hmm, nice attitude there Totten. I didn't 'admit' any such thing but rather asked you to define what you consider the 'true church'.

lain:

You are not somebody I would spend any time talking to, hopefully you think the same way about me.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Why accuse? You do not understand.

If we study the plight of the wicked then we can have a case of their being punished and their destruction in the lake of fire.

However when we look at the judgment of the sheep and goats, we find that it is due to their treatment of the righteous that the sheep are then saved from going to hell and the opposite to the goats.

These days I let people bless me in the way that the sheep do, while not hiding from them my love and service with joy of my Lord.

God knows He gives them much opportunity for those sheep to do so--

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

and--

Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.


LA.

I am glad if you distinguish between the goats and sheep LA, you will know where the blessing is. they have different speech.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You are such a dishonest person, when I called you out for attempting to morph this thread into one promulgating your universalism, you denied it somewhat indignantly...but that is exactly what you have done. Been to Sophia recently?

Um, if you're reading his posts at all you'll see he's promulgating no such thing Totten. Annihilation is completely different which is what Krsto ascribes to so your accusation is defunct.

lain:

 

[Arthur Brain]

You are not somebody I would spend any time talking to, hopefully you think the same way about me.

Well if that's your attitude then unfortunately there's no point is there?

:e4e:

 

[heir]

toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

nope

 

[Arthur Brain]

They might be drawn in if they realize the standard Christian line: they are all going to burn forever unless they repent, is a bunch of hoooey. I think they would be relieved to know one who claims to speak for God and from the scriptures doesn't believe they will burn forever. I think they will be able to accept the fact it's only normal and natural for people's lives to end at the grave since that's what they've come to on their own. Then I show up and say God has a great gift, not everybody gets to hear about it, including your child, but you do. How many will say, "I can't go there because my child couldn't go there?" I don't think they are necessarily going to see that as unfair. Unlucky perhaps, like the one whos lottery ticket wasn't drawn, but not necessarily mistreated or victims of injustice.

But once again this simply comes down to replacing one indescribable fate with another more palatable in comparison. That doesn't impact on whether it's just or fair to start with.

I'm sure they'd be more than aware that peoples physical lives end at death, but if you think a loving parent would simply find the fate of their child 'unlucky' under your proposal then I find that quite shocking in honesty. Loving parents hope to be outlived by their children, not to be putting flowers over their grave. The grief and loss of such bereavement I can only imagine and you think they'd likely see it as simply unlucky but relieved they weren't writhing in a pit of agony? I mean think about it. You're telling them there's no hope for their child but hey ho, they've still got a chance for eternal bliss so don't blow it just cos your child stays in the ground...lain:

They're both objectionable views Krsto. You're more likely to find heated responses including 'How come a loving God can't save my child as well'? 'How come my child was born with cystic fibrosis/had a fatal accident'? etc....

I'll say this much. If I was or ever become a parent and have someone come to my house telling me that if my child dies he/she will be cast into fire then they'll receive a door in the face, quite possibly before they're actually out of the doorway accompanied with some 'choice' words...

And if someone were to come around and inform me that if the same happens then my child would go to the grave and would just be unlucky to miss out on the chance then it would be a repeat of the above....

lain:

 

[Krsto]

But once again this simply comes down to replacing one indescribable fate with another more palatable in comparison. That doesn't impact on whether it's just or fair to start with.

I'm sure they'd be more than aware that peoples physical lives end at death, but if you think a loving parent would simply find the fate of their child 'unlucky' under your proposal then I find that quite shocking in honesty. Loving parents hope to be outlived by their children, not to be putting flowers over their grave. The grief and loss of such bereavement I can only imagine and you think they'd likely see it as simply unlucky but relieved they weren't writhing in a pit of agony? I mean think about it. You're telling them there's no hope for their child but hey ho, they've still got a chance for eternal bliss so don't blow it just cos your child stays in the ground...lain:

They're both objectionable views Krsto. You're more likely to find heated responses including 'How come a loving God can't save my child as well'? 'How come my child was born with cystic fibrosis/had a fatal accident'? etc....

I'll say this much. If I was or ever become a parent and have someone come to my house telling me that if my child dies he/she will be cast into fire then they'll receive a door in the face, quite possibly before they're actually out of the doorway accompanied with some 'choice' words...

And if someone were to come around and inform me that if the same happens then my child would go to the grave and would just be unlucky to miss out on the chance then it would be a repeat of the above....

lain:

It seems in your system of things a loving God would not let disasters happen, diseases spread, wars break out, people like Hitler run a country, or Justin Beiber come to a town near you. But most people, including atheists (and yes, they are people ), see that God allows (if they are an atheist contemplating the idea God exists) pain and suffering, and wouldn't fault him for allowing people to be snuffed out at their end. To think that if God is actually involved in any of this then there should not be any sorrow is sounding more humanistic all the time AB.

 

[Krsto]

You are such a dishonest person, when I called you out for attempting to morph this thread into one promulgating your universalism, you denied it somewhat indignantly...but that is exactly what you have done. Been to Sophia recently?

Uhh . . . what?

 

[Nang]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for September 29th, 2011 09:45 AM

toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

Yes.

Revelation 20:15

Nang

 

[Krsto]

Yes.

Revelation 20:15

Nang

When and why did those names get written in there?

What about hell? That's what the OP is about.

Why do you think that verse supports the idea God chose beforehand who would go to hell?

 

[Arthur Brain]

It seems in your system of things a loving God would not let disasters happen, diseases spread, wars break out, people like Hitler run a country, or Justin Beiber come to a town near you. But most people, including atheists (and yes, they are people ), see that God allows (if they are an atheist contemplating the idea God exists) pain and suffering, and wouldn't fault him for allowing people to be snuffed out at their end. To think that if God is actually involved in any of this then there should not be any sorrow is sounding more humanistic all the time AB.

What on earth do you mean by 'allowing' people to be snuffed out at their end Krsto? Under your 'system' that's what God deigns be it a baby in the womb or an adult with no sense of the 'message' due to whatever reason, be it mental handicap or else. According to you they don't 'make the grade' necessary for further life after this one. I don't think you'll find many atheists/agnostics warming to the idea of a theistic belief that has victims as arbitrary as you would seemingly depict, especially parents. If you seriously think you're offering good news to those who have lost children due to what can only be described as a lottery under your description then you need to buy a flippin clue dude. It is not simply humanistic thinking to find logical and moral objection to that. If it is then what in blazes are you doing railing against eternal suffering? How is the principle itself any different?

I'm not arguing about temporal suffering here (though that can obviously be and is horrendous in itself) so why are you even bringing that up? If you think a grieving set of parents are going to find it 'good news' that they can have eternal bliss, while their 4 year old child remains six foot under with no chance of resurrection then you're off the planet. It's not a case of life on this plane being without sorrow, and you should darn well know that's not what I'm arguing against...

lain:

 

[Nang]

When and why did those names get written in there?

Ephesians 1:4-6

What about hell? That's what the OP is about.

Why do you think that verse supports the idea God chose beforehand who would go to hell?

God chose beforehand who would NOT go to hell.

Nang

 

[Arthur Brain]

Ephesians 1:4-6



God chose beforehand who would NOT go to hell.

Nang

'Love'ly....A deity which supposedly is love creates life with the express purpose of having some born to eternal bliss and others to torment.....One wonders why a loving God would create life to start with....

lain:

 

[some other dude]

Don't like it artie?

Create your own tardly universe and do a better job. :idunno:

 

[Nang]

'Love'ly....A deity which supposedly is love creates life with the express purpose of having some born to eternal bliss and others to torment.....One wonders why a loving God would create life to start with....

lain:

That is the bottom-line gripe of the ungodly . . .

If God chose not to save all sinners, He should not have created men at all.

Such is the degree of enmity anger revealed against God by the majority of His creatures . . . and they wonder why God declares them accursed souls fit only for destruction!

They hate God for creating them and not saving all of them, . . . instead of praising God for saving any sinners at all.

Such is the condition of the unregenerated human heart and mind:

"All or nothing, God . . . else I will continue to hate You!"

 

[Arthur Brain]

That is the bottom-line gripe of the ungodly . . .

If God chose not to save all sinners, He should not have created men at all.

Such is the degree of enmity anger revealed against God by the majority of His creatures . . . and they wonder why God declares them accursed souls fit only for destruction!

They hate God for creating them and not saving all of them, . . . instead of praising God for saving any sinners at all.

Such is the condition of the unregenerated human heart and mind:

"All or nothing, God . . . else I will continue to hate You!"

Why yes of course it is Nang, because to object to the eternal suffering of other people is always a 'gripe' until one becomes "regenerated" isn't it....?

As much as I'm at odds with Krsto in principle I'd still sooner have his outcome than yours if that's how a 'loving' Deity has set things up.

I'll bet you would just luuuurve God if you were one of the ones destined for the BBQ....