toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

Nathon Detroit

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for September 29th, 2011 09:45 AM


toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?






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Sherman

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for September 29th, 2011 09:45 AM


toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?


No. God doesn't predestine people to go to hell. I am going to back myself up with scripture.

Matthew 18:14 - Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

John 3: 15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And here is the clincher.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Hell was made for the Devil and his demons. It isn't God's desire to send people there. It breaks God's heart when people reject Him and end up perishing as the scripture says.
 

Krsto

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If you define hell to be the grave then all men are predestined to go there, Enoch being an exception.

If you word that question, "Are some men destined to stay there," then yes, I believe Isrealites of Christ's time were blinded by God so as not to accept the Gospel so were predestined to end up in the grave and stay there without having the opportunity to have eternal life.
 

The Horn

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Predestination is ridiculously arbitrary and monstrously unfair. I don't believe in hell anyway. It's just a myth invented by Christians to frighten gullible people into following this religion.
I'm not an atheist or materialist, and am not certain that there is nothing after death, but I don't believe the afterlife is a simple as two places, heaven or hell.
It's probably just a whole different universe which exists in other dimensions.
Nor do I conceive of God as the stereotypical angry Biblical deity ,an old man with a white beard in a long white gown who is constantly observing what we do and sitting in judgment of our every act, sentencing us to hell for trivial matters,a s so many Christians have been led to believe.
Literal belief in the Bible has messed up countless people's minds. It can easily be used a propaganda tool.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Better: "Why is anyone not deserving of their just punishment?" :AMR:

The OP question presumes an obligation upon God without warrant.

God hath (a) Decreed in himself from all Eternity, by the most wise and holy Counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things whatsoever comes to passe; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin, (b) nor hath fellowship with any therein, nor is violence offered to the will of the Creature, nor yet is the liberty, or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather (c) established, in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power, and faithfulness (d) in accomplishing his Decree.

We all, in our humanistic finitude, like to think that universalism is the answer, as it often makes our hearts ache to think that many persons will spend eternity in Hell. Sadly, too many of the faithful are not stirred up by this, preferring to sit around in church singing about Mama's favorite rocking chair, full of spiritual stagnation.

The simple fact is that God does not tell us why he saves a multitude that "cannot be numbered" and leaves the remainder in their sin. That said, God does admonish us to not even beg the question. Yet, we continue to disobey, talking back to God.

Underlying the OP is the modern era question involving the best possible world. Why did God create a world where some go to Hell and others do not? Hence, God is somehow not all powerful, nor all-loving. Sigh.

The Arminian and all its theological cousins have no answer, faced with the fact that so many won't even have a chance to exercise their so-called free will.

The Reformed answer may seem cold, but it is one with warrant. God is the potter, we are the clay. Attempts to bridge the Creator-created distinction with humanistic sentimentalities is a fool's errand. We do not know what is the wisest thing for God to do, but, God does. We should embrace and confidently trust in the wisdom of God versus attempting to ascend to the heights of God's abode. That has been tried once, and look what happened. ;)

God provides an answer in the Cross, and we don't see these sort of questions being asked by the faithful about the supposed injustice of punishing an innocent man on that stick of wood. In fact many wear nice silvery crosses around their necks, so they obviously get it. (I do wonder why they do not also wear electric chairs for earrings.) But why don't they equally get it that if God can will the Cross, He cannot will other things that are equally disconcerting to our finite sensibilities?

Christ demonstrated the love of God towards His people, so much so as to ask that they be forgiven for what they were doing. But, for those that dishonored God, Christ showed no mercy. Not all are saved, else mercy is meaningless and justice is deniable.

AMR
 

kmoney

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for September 29th, 2011 09:45 AM


toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?






Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
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No.
Calvinism is from the devil.
 

Sherman

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No.
Calvinism is from the devil.


I would have to agree with you here. It paints God as rather capricious, predestining some to be saved while condemning others to hell before they are even born. That is not the God that the Bible speaks of. 2 Peter 3:9 directly contradicts such an idea.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

Totton Linnet

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Federal headship refers not only to the headship of Adam or Christ, it also refers to who are in places of authority and rulership over peoples and nations.

Somebody who has a better knowledge of history than I do may prove me wrong but to the best of my knowledge there never has been a society of men and women where there has not been human governance.

Who decides who should have power to rule over men? on what basis? for what or whose purposes to bring about?

All these matters have to be taken into consideration when discussing FOREKNOWLEDGE and PREDESTINY, even a casual study of human government will show how intricate and involved a subject it is.

Who is wise enough?

God will hold every man and every woman to account one day for what they have done. He will hold Pharoah Rameses 2 to account.

Looking closely at Romans chapter 9 we read in verse 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharoah even for this purpose have I raised thee up, that I might sho My power in thee and that My name might be declared thoughout all the earth
verse 18
Therefore hath He mercy upon who He will have mercy and whom He will He hardeneth.

Come now ye men of wisdom and knowledge, who on TOL or anywhere on earth is the man wise enough or sufficient in power to govern over all the affairs of men and families and nations?

verse 19
Thou wilt say then unto me why does He yet find fault? for who hath resisted His will?
verse 20
Nay but o man who art thou that repliest against God? shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it why hast Thou made me thus?
verse. 21
Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
verse. 22.
What if God willing to show His wrath ad to make His power known endured with much longsuffering the vessels fitted to destruction
verse 23
And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had prepared afore unto glory.

See here the difference between the vessels fitted to destruction and those prepared afore unto glory.

Both vessels were made of the same lump of clay.

God foreknew man would sin but He did not predestine it, foreknowing it God et forth His plan tto bring about salvation. How is a vessel fitted to destruction? does God do it? I say no.

Does not sin [although every man and woman is a sinner] have to be learned? is it not something which must be practised? I mean that we do not begin to lie with a silken tongue, we stutter and stammer our way through our first lie, nor do people become fighters except by plan and practise, much practise in hardening and steeling the body making it fit and able to destroy. Stealing, drug addiction all these things are skills which a deceitful person must acquire. Does God teach them? no they are themselves fitting their vessels to destruction.

But the vessels God prepared afore unto mercy THESE are who God predestined.

God did not predestine man to sin but He foreknew that He would but God did not therefore relinquish His rule over mankind or the world, now He must rule over a creation in rebellion to Him...God manages sin He makes it serve the purposes of His people and also for the good of mankind as a whole. He, God, chooses who He will raise up and who He will tear down.

And then He will hold them to account.

What did He see in the Rameses that He raised them to the place of power and rulership in Egypt? if we were wise enough to know that we would be God.

People mistakenly think that because God so dealt with Pharoah and his court so God dealt with all Egyptians in the same way but a more careful reading of Exodus will show that many Egyptians sided with Moses and Aaron and showed favour towards the Jews. And God dealt well with them for doing so.
 
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kmoney

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that is really a strong statement
but
I am sure amr would like to see the reasoning behind it

Some verses make sense with Calvinism. Others don't make sense with Calvinism. People can battle verses and interpretation until the cows come home. I believe God is love and I side with what makes sense with a loving God and I think Calvinism is about as far away from a loving God as you can get.
 

Totton Linnet

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Calvinism is as ointment poured forth, it was so in the 17th century, it has but one fly in it that maketh it to give off an evil odour...if the Reformed crowd would set themselves to readdress the issue they might do the grace reformed position in the church and themselves much good.
 
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