ECT Time & Anthropomorphism with GOD

Derf

Well-known member
Hope your Christmas was full of Him. In a nutshell, we are either man-focused from our perspective, or we are trying to ascertain things from God's perspective. We know implicitly that His thoughts and ways are not ours and that 'so far above' are His thoughts than ours. What we have is revelation else we'd always think anthropomorphically. Bad? No, but God Himself, does remind us that He is different and not like a man. Scripture implicitly gives us some Omni's and at other times, a paragraph, chapter, or book describes one of His qualities as we understand the omnis.
A few of your questions intermix these (as well as does my analogies). I used a wholly physical fish example, but my premise is trying to reach beyond that: God is and isn't in a 'where.' That is, 'where' is hard for us, it is a physical construct. God told Moses he could not see Him, just His glory as He passed by. It is somewhat akin to my finger in a fishbowl. You said 'lied' but I think the 'lie' is formed from our limited understanding, such that it isn't at all a lie, we just 'think' (limited, wrongly) it is. God can't lie.

As far as your other comment about the verses being promises to us? Agree, but it doesn't remove the idea that time began, for us. For me, it rather enforces it. God created us in a physical universe and/or created a physical universe for us.

I hope your Christmas was very blessed and your new year is full of Him -Lon

I think the "man-focused" vs "God-focused" is usually a red herring--what we are trying to do is figure out what God tells us about Himself. Any view that doesn't get it right is the man-focused one--since we are using our own view of God over His.

His thoughts and ways are not ours, but He provides, or "reveals" His thoughts to us, at least some of them. Admittedly we are also limited in our understanding, but that doesn't mean God has to turn a "this" into a "not this" for us to understand His thoughts, else we start to think that His thoughts are really the opposite of His thoughts. God's word then is one mass of contradictions.

Sorry for the intermixing--it's coming from trying to understand time as we understand space. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Time is really a measure of one thing against another, at its basic level. Space is, too. And if God is the only thing, I admit of a fault in my measuring rods (which don't exist). When we get down to it, we are both coming from the same basic premise--God can't lie--and branching off from that to see if we can figure out what He's telling us about Himself. But my "lie" accusation was what we make God to do if we anthropomorphize too much of Him and His revelation to us, to the point where He is contradictory to His revelation.

Time definitely began for us! Time began for angels. Time began for God when you talk of Him interacting with other things/beings, I suppose. In that way, if God has always been trinitarian, then He has always interacted with "others" in relationship. That implies progression of time of some sort, doesn't it? Maybe not, but We have so little else to go on except that God did things "before" time, which means there was something that marked progression for Him even before we had something to mark progression for us.

I always tend to go back to a definition of our time that includes corruption--entropy is the best I have to offer--which is inadequate even within the created realm (oops, there's that concept of space again). And when we will no longer be corruptible, we will no longer experience "time" as we know it. But we will experience something--learning, perhaps, since we won't know everything God knows.

Is "knowledge", then, our third "dimension of dimensions"--Space, Time, Knowledge? Your fish analogy suggested such. Did God always know He would make the earth (fishbowl)? Or did He decide at one point to do so? Can He still decide today, or is it impossible for Him to do so, making the earth and its inhabitants an eternal thing. This was the argument from Duffy (can God create a new butterfly?) in the debate, if you watched that.

Christmas was very nice. Laid back, except staying up too late wrapping presents. This was the first since My daughter's wedding, so she wasn't here for it. The concept of the infinite being birthed the same way we are is mind-boggling--even more so now than before (and getting more so every year).
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
That "bus" is Christ. Those who are IN CHRIST are ordained to eternal life.

Those in Christ are there because they believed. And the verse we are looking at reveals that they were ordained to salvation before they believed.

The following two verses are speaking about the same exact thing and it is impossible that "individuals" are not in view:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

Both of these verses speak of how people are chosen for salvation and both are speaking about the LORD choosing for salvation those who believe. It is ridiculous to even imagine that the LORD knows beforehand who believes and who does not believe but at the same time He doesn't know their identity.
 

Derf

Well-known member
If the LORD ordained that they would live forever in their physical bodies then they would have lived forever that way.

Then you are saying that the Lord ordained that they die--eating the fruit really had nothing to do with it? Was that just an excuse to kill them?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Those in Christ are there because they believed. And the verse we are looking at reveals that they were ordained to salvation before they believed.

If you read ordained the way you seem to be, then you are agreeing with the Calvinists, are you not?


The following two verses are speaking about the same exact thing and it is impossible that "individuals" are not in view:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

Both of these verses speak of how people are chosen for salvation and both are speaking about the LORD choosing for salvation those who believe. It is ridiculous to even imagine that the LORD knows beforehand who believes and who does not believe but at the same time He doesn't know their identity.

The second set of verses speaks of how to become an ELECT, the method, and not the "ordaining" before they ever believed.


Again, the "Beloved", the "Chosen", the "Elect ONE" is the Lord Jesus Christ. And it was ordained that His body (those IN HIM) would be IN HIM because they believed.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Then you are saying that the Lord ordained that they die--eating the fruit really had nothing to do with it? Was that just an excuse to kill them?

I never said that the LORD ordained anything about them. But I did say that some people were ordained to eternal life before they believed.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
If you read ordained the way you seem to be, then you are agreeing with the Calvinists, are you not?

I am agreeing with the following two Calvinists about what they say on this subject. William Ames said the following:

"There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).​

According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." This idea that all things are "simultaneous" with God was expressed by another author, Loraine Boettner:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

Therefore, since God does not actually look into the future because with Him all things are happening simultaneously the future in regard to human choices are not limited in anyway.

The future is open!
 

JudgeRightly

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I am agreeing with the following two Calvinists about what they say on this subject. William Ames said the following:

"There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).​

According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." This idea that all things are "simultaneous" with God was expressed by another author, Loraine Boettner:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

Therefore, since God does not actually look into the future because with Him all things are happening simultaneously the future in regard to human choices are not limited in anyway.

The future is open!
So when the Bible says that God is patient, it doesn't actually mean that God is patient?

Because patience requires one to be in the present, waiting for something to occur in the future...
 

Lon

Well-known member
I think the "man-focused" vs "God-focused" is usually a red herring--what we are trying to do is figure out what God tells us about Himself. Any view that doesn't get it right is the man-focused one--since we are using our own view of God over His.
Couple of points: 1) for me, not a red herring. God reaches 'us' where we are at. That doesn't mean everyone will get it the same, and in point of fact, they can't (less than half can even 'begin' to think in formal operational stages). It means, God's message reaches everyone (similar to mathematical grasps). It just doesn't reach us all the same. Anyone who has not gained in formal operational thinking, doesn't really grasp the latter description. Problem? Probably from us who don't relate well. Not everybody can explain algebra for instance, some are better at it than others, yet scripture, itself, reminds us Isaiah 55:8,9 Ephesians 3:18 etc. That's why John 15:5 applies to all of us, wherever we are at.

His thoughts and ways are not ours, but He provides, or "reveals" His thoughts to us, at least some of them. Admittedly we are also limited in our understanding, but that doesn't mean God has to turn a "this" into a "not this" for us to understand His thoughts, else we start to think that His thoughts are really the opposite of His thoughts. God's word then is one mass of contradictions.
It is important to realize we all reach different levels of what we can assimilate and attain. It should never come across bad. I should never mean by "Oh, you don't know algebra, sorry" that you (hypothetical you) aren't as smart. That simply is not true. It ONLY means one is not equipped with that particular ability. For instance, if I had all A's, you'd not think me stupid if I couldn't drive a car. The two are unrelated and it is similar here. Metaphysics "with or beyond" what we physically see or understand. Many cannot think in this stage, or at least never do (I think it takes awhile and a desire, but one can get there if they desire over time, imho (not all, but I 'think' most could given the desire).

Sorry for the intermixing--it's coming from trying to understand time as we understand space. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Time is really a measure of one thing against another, at its basic level. Space is, too. And if God is the only thing, I admit of a fault in my measuring rods (which don't exist). When we get down to it, we are both coming from the same basic premise--God can't lie--and branching off from that to see if we can figure out what He's telling us about Himself. But my "lie" accusation was what we make God to do if we anthropomorphize too much of Him and His revelation to us, to the point where He is contradictory to His revelation.
:up:

Time definitely began for us! Time began for angels. Time began for God when you talk of Him interacting with other things/beings, I suppose. In that way, if God has always been trinitarian, then He has always interacted with "others" in relationship. That implies progression of time of some sort, doesn't it? Maybe not, but We have so little else to go on except that God did things "before" time, which means there was something that marked progression for Him even before we had something to mark progression for us.
Yes, sort of. It again is akin (to me) of God being 'all wet' in time vs a finger.

I always tend to go back to a definition of our time that includes corruption--entropy is the best I have to offer--which is inadequate even within the created realm (oops, there's that concept of space again). And when we will no longer be corruptible, we will no longer experience "time" as we know it. But we will experience something--learning, perhaps, since we won't know everything God knows.
The hardest part, for me (and it seems you) regarding formal operations and metaphysical thinking is that we don't have adequate language to describe it. As I said, some of us are better at explaining algebra. I'm not very good at explaining it (did better with some of the higher maths).
In connection, His ways begin to flitter away from my grasp rather quickly. I suppose, in and of that, it is a bit of a red herring because it is genuinely unattainable, but it also allows me to understand, very clearly, why God isn't bound by physical qualities. The moment that happens, God is a product of the universe. We know He isn't and cannot be, both metaphysically and by revelation (Isaiah, Ezekiel etc.).

Is "knowledge", then, our third "dimension of dimensions"--Space, Time, Knowledge?
Yes, and again for most. Even of the other half, that does delve into metaphysical abstract thinking, a good number of those don't walk there comfortably. It is about the same attrition rate as with those math classes. That kind of meta thinking goes closely hand-in-hand. So, if you do well in higher math, you also are doing well in higher (non-physical or 'not just' physical thinking). That said, someone will try and describe it as I've done with the fishbowl analogy and boom, we are back to physical concrete sequential, concrete operational discussion. Again, God reaches us similarly too. If a person doesn't get all of algebra, at least they can grasp some of it. 3n= someone can do if they know the value of 'n.' When they understand 'n' is a variable that can be given, they catch a tiny bit of introduction into formal operational thinking. When we understand 'principles' in scripture, we also begin to delve into that formal operational stage as well.

Your fish analogy suggested such. Did God always know He would make the earth (fishbowl)? Or did He decide at one point to do so? Can He still decide today, or is it impossible for Him to do so, making the earth and its inhabitants an eternal thing. This was the argument from Duffy (can God create a new butterfly?) in the debate, if you watched that.
This is a bit of what I mean. With algebra, as SOON as I say n equals 20, if you think 'n' ONLY equals 20, you are somewhat stuck in concrete (physical, graspable) terms. Your question 'comes from' time in and of itself. It is like asking "was there water before water existed?" If all things are contained in God and NOTHING exists outside of Him (again, all concrete operational terms) then we can somewhat (small percentage) understand that yes, somehow water has always existed as far as we understand OR 'nope.' Once we say either, we are either thinking of the big picture OR closing it down. Whichever way we go indicates our operational thinking parameters. Even among formal operational thinkers, there is debate going on. Why? Because "Always" and "never" are times thus chronological considerations but, that's all we know.
In that way, if God has always been trinitarian, then He has always interacted with "others" in relationship. That implies progression of time of some sort, doesn't it?

I'm not sure how well this will go over, but here goes: Before there was time (before is a time consideration so again, problematic), quality existed in God (likely), not quantity/qualitative change (God is perfect thus there is nothing but absolute quality already). IOW, because God is perfect, all things are already arrived. Only in a system like we are in, where we are NOT perfect but 'moving toward it' would time be a factor. Acts 17:28
Again, I'm not always the guy to go to for all of this. I can't always give the exact means one needs to arrive at what I'm saying. I do think beyond physical parameters but I haven't the vocabulary for explaining it well. Before I knew algebra, I would have had a very hard time with 'n.' This is somewhat akin.

Christmas was very nice. Laid back, except staying up too late wrapping presents. This was the first since My daughter's wedding, so she wasn't here for it. The concept of the infinite being birthed the same way we are is mind-boggling--even more so now than before (and getting more so every year).
I think that is why Paul says in Ephesians 3:18,19 to 'discover' that which is 'beyond' our ability to fully discover YET that we would 'discover' it. A God without measure is, well, not quantifiable or able to be 'fully' discovered (else "we" would be without measure). I'm with you on that. -Lon
 

Danoh

New member
Patience is an aspect of one's perception of the passing of time.

That same child so restlessly impatient over those molasses-like minutes it sits in class looking up at that e-v-e-r s-o s-l-o-w clock up on the wall counting down the minutes of, is completely fine, not impatient at all, during those same ten minutes of "Yay! Recess TIME!"

As for The LORD as to time, space, and matter limitations - especially given what those are actually all about?

He Himself, is not subject to them, thus why...

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What allows Him this seeming patience that we count as His patience, as finite creatures?

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Is there a limit for Him where this - OUR - concept of space, time, and matter are concerned - on our side of the equation?

Nope.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

And not bad for such a primitive age, technologically, way back then.

Not to mention His many simply absent of the constraints of space, time, and matter healings...

Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Mark 5:29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.

What was behind this time, space, matter contraint-less-ness?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This was no "consider it done."

Rather...done.

As in...

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

As in...

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

As in...

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Not that gradual phasing out during teleportation thru time, space, and matter, as depicted, say, in Star Trek.

But that here, one second, way on the other side of the planet in the next, as depicted, say, in those sci-fies where a person just pops in and out.

"In a moment of time...in the twinkling of an eye..."

In other words, outside of time - time, space, and matter-less-ness...

For "God is a Spirit" John 4:24.

As with that difference between the necessary sense of time under the Law and that timelessness that is being under Grace.

That difference between the Temporal and the Eternal.

All that aside, nevertheless Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.
 
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glorydaz

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I never said that the LORD ordained anything about them. But I did say that some people were ordained to eternal life before they believed.

And I say you're ignoring the context of that text to support your conclusion. I have no idea if your conclusion is correct or not, but that verse is not saying what you think it is.
 

glorydaz

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Then please tell us what it is saying.

Thanks!

As Paul was going about preaching the Gospel of Grace, there were Jews who were filled with envy and spoke against Paul's preaching Grace over the Law (of which they considered themselves the experts). They were, therefore, not disposed to hear the Gospel much less believe it. They were not set to receive it...which is what the word tasso means, from what I can see.

Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.​

Again speaking of the Gospel. They put it from them...therefore judging themselves "unworthy" of everlasting life. Paul, clearly being facetious here.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.​

Clearly, the Gentiles, who heard the Gospel were "glad and glorified the word"....they were predisposed to hear and believe.

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.​

They were "set to receive" the Good News. Their minds were open to the Gospel. And, if you look at how Luke uses that same word "tasso" in other places, you'd see he isn't speaking of predestination at all.
 

Tambora

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As Paul was going about preaching the Gospel of Grace, there were Jews who were filled with envy and spoke against Paul's preaching Grace over the Law (of which they considered themselves the experts). They were, therefore, not disposed to hear the Gospel much less believe it. They were not set to receive it...which is what the word tasso means, from what I can see.
Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.​

Again speaking of the Gospel. They put it from them...therefore judging themselves "unworthy" of everlasting life. Paul, clearly being facetious here.
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.​

Clearly, the Gentiles, who heard the Gospel were "glad and glorified the word"....they were predisposed to hear and believe.
Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.​

They were "set to receive" the Good News. Their minds were open to the Gospel. And, if you look at how Luke uses that same word "tasso" in other places, you'd see he isn't speaking of predestination at all.
Good post.
 

Jerry Shugart

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They were "set to receive" the Good News. Their minds were open to the Gospel. And, if you look at how Luke uses that same word "tasso" in other places, you'd see he isn't speaking of predestination at all.

Please give me a defintion of the word tasso from any recognized Greek expert where the meaning is given as "set to receive" or something similiar.

According to Strong's the word means "to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):—addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set."

That definition fits perfectly with my view.

The LORD assigned eternal life to all who believed. And that assignment happened before anyone believed.
 
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Tambora

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Article by Bob Enyart

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible.

http://kgov.com/is-god-outside-of-time

Excerpts from article .....


- is timeless- in an eternal now
- atemporal and outside of time
- not was, nor will be, but only is
- has no past
- has no future.

Of course NOT ONE of these phrases is in the Bible. They're from Plato. And the Platonists.





is - and was - and is to come - Whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting


- Forever and ever - The Ancient of Days - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - the everlasting God - He continues forever - From of old - Remains forever - Eternal - Immortal - The Lord shall endure forever - Who lives forever - yesterday, today, and forever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - Everlasting Father - Alive forevermore - Always lives - Forever - Continually - the eternal God - God’s years never end - From everlasting to everlasting - From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end

Of course ALL THESE are verbatim phrases from Scripture, some being repeated many times. NOT ONE MEANS TIMELESSNESS. Rather, they mean unending duration. So the Bible teaches the opposite of pagan Greek philosophy.





Scripture describes God's creation of matter and space, light and life, but not of time




There is Time in Heaven:

- When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about HALF AN HOUR (Rev. 8:1).

- When He opened the fifth seal [martyrs in heaven said]: "HOW LONG, O Lord… until You… avenge our blood…" (Rev. 6:9; 11:17-18)

- …the tree of life… bore twelve fruits [a different one] EVERY MONTH (Rev. 22:2).

- But this Man, AFTER He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down… FROM THAT TIME WAITING TILL His enemies are [defeated] (Heb. 10:12-13).

- As the LORD says, "I have held My peace A LONG TIME" (Isa. 42:14).


- And [God will not punish demons] "before [their] time" (Mat. 8:29).

 

Jerry Shugart

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Article by Bob Enyart

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible.

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about HALF AN HOUR (Rev. 8:1).

That verse is speaking about the second heaven and not the third.

Just curious, but does Bob address the following verses?

"...making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth" (Eph.1:9-10; ESV).​

And he has taught us the mystery of his will, that which he had before ordained to perform in himself, For the administration of the end of time, that all things which are in Heaven and in Earth would be made new again by The Messiah" (Eph.1:9-10; Aramaic Bible in Plain English).​

It will be in the eternal state when all things in heaven and things on earth will be united and many teach that time will no longer exist in the eternal state.
 

JudgeRightly

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That verse is speaking about the second heaven and not the third.

Just curious, but does Bob address the following verses?

"...making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth" (Eph.1:9-10; ESV).​

And he has taught us the mystery of his will, that which he had before ordained to perform in himself, For the administration of the end of time, that all things which are in Heaven and in Earth would be made new again by The Messiah" (Eph.1:9-10; Aramaic Bible in Plain English).​

It will be in the eternal state when all things in heaven and things on earth will be united and many teach that time will no longer exist in the eternal state.

Bob doesn't have to.

ESV has it mostly correct, ABPE has it incorrectly translated.

The phrase used in verse 10 is "of the fullness of the times"

Πληρώματος (pleromatos) does not mean "end". It means fullness.

Τῶν καιρῶν (ton kairon) means "of the times", because kairon is a genitive masculine plural noun.

And what "they" teach does not line up with what the Bible teaches.
 
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