ECT Time & Anthropomorphism with GOD

[Tambora]

TIME
Is timelessness biblical?
Does scripture support time as being created and had a beginning?

For this thread, my position is that time is not created but has always been and always will be.
Perhaps an opening question could be ..... Would there be any purpose at all that would make it necessary for GOD to have the capability to back into the past or to go into the future?


Anthropomorphism
A form of Personification, but slightly different.
Anthropomorphism is the art of placing human characteristics onto non-human objects or beings.
For this study it is the art of placing human characteristics on GOD in scripture --- GOD is said to have eyes, arms, hands, hair, etc.

The argument sometimes arises that this is a means GOD uses in scripture to "dumb down" what is really happening so that humans can better understand it by having a visual imagery of things we are accustomed to seeing.
Along with this argument is that GOD cannot have arms, eyes, hair, etc., so even though He is spoken of with those terms, we are not to REALLY think of Him as having these characteristics.
They don't like the idea of thinking of GOD in any form at all, much less as similar to man.

For this thread, my position is that being similar to man IS how we are to envision GOD.
And my question would be "Why shouldn't we envision GOD as similar to a man" if that is the very imagery He provides us with?






*** I have included both these subjects in the same thread because in some theology groups these are used often and have some overlap to express what GOD is and how He operates, although they can also be talked about in this thread separately.
It is to keep another thread from going down an off-topic rabbit hole. ***


Chose your poison and go with it!

 

[patrick jane]

One of the first thoughts that popped into my head was that time didn't exist until the moment the universe was created. I can't begin to explain what it means to be before time existed.

 

[glorydaz]

TIME
Is timelessness biblical?
Does scripture support time as being created and had a beginning?

No.

For this thread, my position is that time is not created but has always been and always will be.
Perhaps an opening question could be ..... Would there be any purpose at all that would make it necessary for GOD to have the capability to back into the past or to go into the future?

No

Anthropomorphism
A form of Personification, but slightly different.
Anthropomorphism is the art of placing human characteristics onto non-human objects or beings.
For this study it is the art of placing human characteristics on GOD in scripture --- GOD is said to have eyes, arms, hands, hair, etc.

The argument sometimes arises that this is a means GOD uses in scripture to "dumb down" what is really happening so that humans can better understand it by having a visual imagery of things we are accustomed to seeing.
Along with this argument is that GOD cannot have arms, eyes, hair, etc., so even though He is spoken of with those terms, we are not to REALLY think of Him as having these characteristics.
They don't like the idea of thinking of GOD in any form at all, much less as similar to man.

For this thread, my position is that being similar to man IS how we are to envision GOD.
And my question would be "Why shouldn't we envision GOD as similar to a man" if that is the very imagery He provides us with?

We were created in God's image, as was Jesus ....the visible of the invisible God.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:​

Just because God is invisible to us, doesn't mean He is invisible to other spirit beings. :idunno:

 

[glorydaz]

One of the first thoughts that popped into my head was that time didn't exist until the moment the universe was created. I can't begin to explain what it means to be before time existed.

:think:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,​

 

[patrick jane]

:think:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,​

It's hard to comprehend or to imagine, I should say. I try to picture things in my mind a lot and I can't get the picture on that. :chuckle:

 

[Tambora]

We were created in God's image, as was Jesus ....the visible of the invisible God.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:​

Just because God is invisible to us, doesn't mean He is invisible to other spirit beings. :idunno:

I can see that you and I are going to be on the save wave length, and you started the discussion with a bang up job.
:thumb:

 

[Tambora]

No.



No

I find it to be contrary to what scripture presents, or at the very least an addition to what scripture presents.
Why do you suppose so many folks want to insist that time has not always existed with GOD?

 

[Tambora]

One of the first thoughts that popped into my head was that time didn't exist until the moment the universe was created. I can't begin to explain what it means to be before time existed.

I don't think anyone can.
But it is an interesting concept and makes for lots of good sci-fy movies!

But lets imagine for a moment that GOD can travel back and forth through time.
Could the incarnate Christ meet the pre-incarnate Christ?

 

[patrick jane]

I don't think anyone can.
But it is an interesting concept and makes for lots of good sci-fy movies!

But lets imagine for a moment that GOD can travel back and forth through time.
Could the incarnate Christ meet the pre-incarnate Christ?

They have in a sense. Jesus knew of the glory he shared with the Father before the world began. But you mean like Back To The Future type stuff where two separate characters from different points in time meet, I think.

I bet if I search for the scriptures looking for relations to "time" by keeping it in the back of my mind, I would see it more. I have also wondered what the "fullness of times" means. Ephesians 1:10 - That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Is this thread more about whether God exist "in time" or "outside" of time, and that because we are in His image it means He is "in time"?

We know God doesn't "experience" time the same way we do. 2 Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[patrick jane]

I can see that you and I are going to be on the save wave length, and you started the discussion with a bang up job.
:thumb:

The save wave :chuckle:

 

[Tambora]

We know God doesn't "experience" time the same way we do. 2 Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

AS a thousand years.
AS one day.
Not that the duration of one of GOD's days is a thousand years long.
Day and night are the same duration for GOD as they are with us.

And yes, we experience time in like manner, when we think of a past event and say "It seems like it was just yesterday", or another year goes by and Christmas rolls around and we say "Already?!!".

 

[patrick jane]

AS a thousand years.
AS one day.
Not that the duration of one of GOD's days is a thousand years long.
Day and night are the same duration for GOD as they are with us.

And yes, we experience time in like manner, when we think of a past event and say "It seems like it was just yesterday", or another year goes by and Christmas rolls around and we say "Already?!!".

Do you think God "experiences" 24 hour days, years etc.? Isn't God timeless? And we have Melchizedek

Hebrews 7:3 KJV - [FONT=&quot]Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.[/FONT]

 

[DAN P]

TIME
Is timelessness biblical?
Does scripture support time as being created and had a beginning?

For this thread, my position is that time is not created but has always been and always will be.
Perhaps an opening question could be ..... Would there be any purpose at all that would make it necessary for GOD to have the capability to back into the past or to go into the future?


Anthropomorphism
A form of Personification, but slightly different.
Anthropomorphism is the art of placing human characteristics onto non-human objects or beings.
For this study it is the art of placing human characteristics on GOD in scripture --- GOD is said to have eyes, arms, hands, hair, etc.

The argument sometimes arises that this is a means GOD uses in scripture to "dumb down" what is really happening so that humans can better understand it by having a visual imagery of things we are accustomed to seeing.
Along with this argument is that GOD cannot have arms, eyes, hair, etc., so even though He is spoken of with those terms, we are not to REALLY think of Him as having these characteristics.
They don't like the idea of thinking of GOD in any form at all, much less as similar to man.

For this thread, my position is that being similar to man IS how we are to envision GOD.
And my question would be "Why shouldn't we envision GOD as similar to a man" if that is the very imagery He provides us with?






*** I have included both these subjects in the same thread because in some theology groups these are used often and have some overlap to express what GOD is and how He operates, although they can also be talked about in this thread separately.
It is to keep another thread from going down an off-topic rabbit hole. ***


Chose your poison and go with it!

Hi and I believe that 2 Tim 1:9 is a verse that describes where TIME BEGAN !!

CHRONOS / TIME and THE WORLD BEGAN / AIONOS and can mean , The world began , Everlasting , and with out end !

dan p

 

[Tambora]

Anthropomorphism

This word is used a lot, particularly in Calvinism.
You will hear things like "GOD was dumbing down the way he talked to man so that puny little man could understand.
I remember John Sanders commenting on this a few years ago.
He called it "baby talking" similar of how adults speak to infants. (Actually that was the term his opponent used.)

He (Sanders) went on to counter the "baby talking" view in that the problem was that one would have to KNOW both baby talk and adult talk to be able to distinguish between the two and thus could call what they were hearing as "baby talk" as opposed to "adult talk".

Here is where he cornered his opponent.
If mankind were the babies that could only understand baby talk, then how could his opponent (mankind, a baby) make the distinction that what GOD was speaking was "baby talk" instead of "adult talk"?
Did his opponent (mankind, a baby) know the "adult GOD language" (ie. he would have to know both to distinguish between the two)?
And if he (the mankind baby opponent) KNEW the adult GOD language, then why did GOD need to speak in baby talk to mankind to begin with???

 

[Right Divider]

TIME
Is timelessness biblical?
Does scripture support time as being created and had a beginning?

For this thread, my position is that time is not created but has always been and always will be.
Perhaps an opening question could be ..... Would there be any purpose at all that would make it necessary for GOD to have the capability to back into the past or to go into the future?

This is what we call a loaded question.

 

[Tambora]

Do you think God "experiences" 24 hour days, years etc.?

A day is simply a moment of time sequence.
Yes, GOD experiences moments in time.

Isn't God timeless?

I see no instance in scripture where GOD does anything that is not in sequence.
If the idea that GOD is timeless, but scripture reveals no such thing, then where did the idea of GOD being timeless come from?

And we have Melchizedek

Hebrews 7:3 KJV - Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

That's not showing any timelessness, it is showing perpetual/continual time.

 

[Tambora]

This is what we call a loaded question.

I don't follow, how is loaded?
It is either purposeless or it has a purpose.
Does GOD do anything that is purposeless?

 

[Right Divider]

I don't follow, how is loaded?
It is either purposeless or it has a purpose.
Does GOD do anything that is purposeless?

If God existed without time before the creation of the world, it had nothing to with purpose. It just was.

Would there be any purpose at all that would make it necessary for GOD to have the capability to back into the past or to go into the future?

That is a totally loaded question, as it makes a huge assumption and that then continues as it that assumption it true.

No, it is not "necessary" at all. It just either is or isn't.

 

[Tambora]

If God existed without time before the creation of the world, it had nothing to with purpose. It just was.

Well ......

That is a totally loaded question, as it makes a huge assumption and that then continues as it that assumption it true.

Why is my statement a loaded assumption, but your above statement is not?
You start with the assumption that time did not exist with GOD before creation and continue that assumption to your conclusion.

No, it is not "necessary" at all. It just either is or isn't.

That's what we are trying to determine by asking questions about it from both perspectives.
So I don't consider either of our statements as "loaded".
I think they help us explore thoughts on the matter.

If it was not necessary, then it was purposeless, aimless, meaningless, of no value.
Plus the fact that we have no indication in scripture that GOD ever did anything that was not in sequence.
So why would any theology student want to insist on adding it to a study of the GOD of scripture?
I mean, some (not saying you) are so adamant about it that they will call anyone a heretic for not believing it.

The theory of timelessness in theology started around the time of Ambrose and Augustine.
Augustine was a Platonist.
Augustine was so enthralled with Platonism that he once suggested that one could not sufficiently understand scripture but through the lens of Platonism, and did all he could to merge them.
He also commented that he did not believe hardly any of scripture until after he studied Platonism.
This is not news, it has been known of Augustine that he relied heavily on Platonism and incorporated it into his theology.

I like the topic.
I think it's interesting to talk about.
But if it cannot be verified with scripture, then it is little more than speculative philosophy talk.

 

[patrick jane]

Hi and I believe that 2 Tim 1:9 is a verse that describes where TIME BEGAN !!

CHRONOS / TIME and THE WORLD BEGAN / AIONOS and can mean , The world began , Everlasting , and with out end !

dan p

That suggests time didn't begin until creation. John 17:5 KJV - And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.