The Two Resurrections

Derf

Well-known member
As per request I would like to take a look at a subject that I've seldom heard talked about but which, for me, is endlessly fascinating. The first time I read Rev 20 I was taken aback. Though I grew up agnostic, still, Christianity was so much a part of our American culture, particularly in the South, that you couldn't help but absorb some of the Cliff Notes of that faith. Even at that I had never heard what was put forth in Rev 20 anywhere.
The first 6 verses of Rev 20 set forth the fact that there are 2 resurrections and identifies who is a part of the first one. I would like to offer this passage now for those that may not have read it and as a refresher for those that have.


1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

While reading this please bear one thing in mind. The term here translated as "beheaded" is defined in the Greek as follows:

πελεκίζω pelekízō, pel-ek-id'-zo; from a derivative of G4141 (meaning an axe); to chop off (the head), i.e. truncate:—behead.

πλήσσω plḗssō, place'-so; apparently another form of G4111 (through the idea of flattening out); to pound, i.e. (figuratively) to inflict with (calamity):—smite. Compare G5180.

It is helpful when reading this to remember that the Hebrew term "to cut off" was often used as another way of saying "to kill" and in this instance if think the meaning offered here might be better understood to include all who had been killed for the Word of God and not just those that suffered decapitation. This would put this passage more in harmony with the rest of the passages concerning this subject.
I've been wondering if the choice of who gets to participate in the 1st resurrection is somewhat similar to the testing Abraham experienced when told to sacrifice Isaac. In other words, the testing revealed A's heart by his actions.

In like manner, God might know our hearts if we submit ourselves to trials and death for His name's sake, and maybe not otherwise.

But Paul doesn't seem to make any distinction between faithful believers and faithless ones in 1 Th 4, at least while discussing the resurrection, vs 13 and following (unless the word "brethren" defines that distinction).

In general, though, I tend to think there is some demarcation of those "believers" who will be resurrected at the beginning of the millennium compared to those "believers" who wait til after.
 

fzappa13

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I've been wondering if the choice of who gets to participate in the 1st resurrection is somewhat similar to the testing Abraham experienced when told to sacrifice Isaac. In other words, the testing revealed A's heart by his actions.

In like manner, God might know our hearts if we submit ourselves to trials and death for His name's sake, and maybe not otherwise.

But Paul doesn't seem to make any distinction between faithful believers and faithless ones in 1 Th 4, at least while discussing the resurrection, vs 13 and following (unless the word "brethren" defines that distinction).

In general, though, I tend to think there is some demarcation of those "believers" who will be resurrected at the beginning of the millennium compared to those "believers" who wait til after.
Bingo.
 

Gary K

New member
I'm not sure of your point. Could you expand on that?

Here is what I get out of it. God is just, and the Holy Spirit works upon the hearts of everyone in the world. Therefore I believe there will be people in heaven who have never heard the name of Jesus. Why? Because they have obeyed the promptings of the Holy Spirit and thus lived up to all the light they had,

Acts 17: 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
 

fzappa13

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I'm not sure of your point. Could you expand on that?

Here is what I get out of it. God is just, and the Holy Spirit works upon the hearts of everyone in the world. Therefore I believe there will be people in heaven who have never heard the name of Jesus. Why? Because they have obeyed the promptings of the Holy Spirit and thus lived up to all the light they had,

Acts 17: 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Romans 5: 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Sounds about right. Reminds me of another passage:

Luke 12:
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

...and then there is the parable of the Talents.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
I fear dispensationalism has reached the stage that it envisions two Jesuses. One for themselves and one for Israel.
or dispensationalist have dug a little deeper and see the change in plan , a reason for calling Paul.
from this
Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"

to this
Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles
Eph 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you,
 

fzappa13

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or dispensationalist have dug a little deeper and see the change in plan , a reason for calling Paul.
from this
Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"

to this
Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles
Eph 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you,
The first scripture you offered is a prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled. The second is unfolding before our eyes. One does not abrogate the other. Paul was not given a dispensation as it regards the first of your offerings, but, the second of them.
 
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Right Divider

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The first scripture you offered is a prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled.
Yes, we know that.
The point was that the Jews are leading the gentiles to God.
The second is unfolding before our eyes. One does not abrogate the other. Paul was not given a dispensation as it regards the first of your offerings, but, the second of them.
Yes, again we know.

The point is that there are different missions of the Jews under the covenants and Paul.

Jesus appeared to Paul many times to give him new information (revelation). The mission of the twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel has been interrupted/postponed. That is one of the reasons that Peter disappears about halfway through the book of Acts.
 

Tambora

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Deuteronomy 32 ESV
(21) They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them [Israel] jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.


Romans 10 ESV
(19) But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
(20) Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”


Gentiles


That Gentiles would be reached out to by God is no mystery, it was prophesied all along.
 
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Derf

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Deuteronomy 32 ESV
(21) They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them [Israel] jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.


Romans 10 ESV
(19) But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
(20) Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”


Gentiles


That Gentiles would be reached out to by God is no mystery, it was prophesied all along.
And since that was prophecied, it wasn't the mystery Paul spoke of, which makes the mystery something that was not promised:
Ephesians 1:9-10 KJV — Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

And to make sure we understand, Paul wrote it again:

Ephesians 3:3-6 KJV — How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Isnt this body Paul speaks of "the body of Christ"? So if we're supposed to be of the same body, why are you MAD folks always trying to divide the body of Christ?

If we're to be "fellow" heirs, why do you MAD folks say we're not inheriting the same kingdom?
 

Tambora

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And since that was prophecied, it wasn't the mystery Paul spoke of, which makes the mystery something that was not promised:
Not necessarily something was not promised.
For even the apostles were unaware that the promised Messiah would die even though His death was also prophesied and yet those prophesies were veiled enough that is wasn't clear until it actually took place.


Ephesians 1:9-10 KJV — Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

And to make sure we understand, Paul wrote it again:

Ephesians 3:3-6 KJV — How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Yeppers.

Isnt this body Paul speaks of "the body of Christ"? So if we're supposed to be of the same body, why are you MAD folks always trying to divide the body of Christ?

If we're to be "fellow" heirs, why do you MAD folks say we're not inheriting the same kingdom?
I think MAD has a lot of good points.
However I also think they go too far at times to force a narrative to be a one-to-one correlation.
For instance, MAD can recognize that much of what is within the narrative of Israel in the OT is not a one-to-one correlation, but a typology (such David being the future king when we know it is about Christ and not David himself).
The same is recognized that "Out of Egypt I called my son" was not a one-to-one correlation because the OT makes it clear it was Israel and yet the NT makes the fulfillment about Christ and not Israel itself.
MAD stops short at times of considering that Israel is also a typology of something other than just Israel and tries to force Israel to be nothing but Israel itself.
 

fzappa13

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Deuteronomy 32 ESV
(21) They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them [Israel] jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.


Romans 10 ESV
(19) But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
(20) Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”


Gentiles


That Gentiles would be reached out to by God is no mystery, it was prophesied all along.
John 10:
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
 

JudgeRightly

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fzappa13

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I
I think MAD has a lot of good points.
However I also think they go too far at times to force a narrative to be a one-to-one correlation.
For instance, MAD can recognize that much of what is within the narrative of Israel in the OT is not a one-to-one correlation, but a typology (such David being the future king when we know it is about Christ and not David himself).

I think a careful reading of Ez 40-48 seems to allow for the possibility that both things are true.

The same is recognized that "Out of Egypt I called my son" was not a one-to-one correlation because the OT makes it clear it was Israel and yet the NT makes the fulfillment about Christ and not Israel itself.

Again, why can't both things be true?

MAD stops short at times of considering that Israel is also a typology of something other than just Israel and tries to force Israel to be nothing but Israel itself.

Or, said another way, "Who is a Jew?" Paul knew.
 

Tambora

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why can't both things be true?
Both events happened if that's what you mean.
Israel, the son of God, was called out of Egypt.
Christ, the Son of God, was called out of Egypt.

My point is that the literal Israel that came out of Egypt is not what the NT writer say was the fulfillment in that prophetic veiling.
In other words, it happened with literal Israel but literal Israel didn't turn out to be a one-to-one correlation (ie. it didn't turn out to be literal Israel that was the prophetic fulfillment).
 

JudgeRightly

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Why do you say that?

Not me. Scripture:

“In those days and in that time,” says the Lord,“The children of Israel shall come,They and the children of Judah together;With continual weeping they shall come,And seek the Lord their God. They shall ask the way to Zion,With their faces toward it, saying,‘Come and let us join ourselves to the LordIn a perpetual covenantThat will not be forgotten.’ “My people have been lost sheep.Their shepherds have led them astray;They have turned them away on the mountains.They have gone from mountain to hill;They have forgotten their resting place. All who found them have devoured them;And their adversaries said, ‘We have not offended,Because they have sinned against the Lord, the habitation of justice,The Lord, the hope of their fathers.’

Jesus said:

But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Scripture says more explicitly that God wants to reunite the two nations under one King.

Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand. “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”
 

fzappa13

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Both events happened if that's what you mean.
Israel, the son of God, was called out of Egypt.
Christ, the Son of God, was called out of Egypt.

My point is that the literal Israel that came out of Egypt is not what the NT writer say was the fulfillment in that prophetic veiling.
In other words, it happened with literal Israel but literal Israel didn't turn out to be a one-to-one correlation (ie. it didn't turn out to be literal Israel that was the prophetic fulfillment).
I would suggest that prophecy has multiple fulfillments. We could start with the Passover. We've seen two ... we'll see a third.
 
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