heir
TOL Subscriber
All Greeks were Gentiles, but not all Gentiles were Greeks. Greeks were the first sending Gentiles (Acts 26:17 KJV who were IN (Galatians 3:29 KJV), not second sending (Acts 22:17-21 KJV) OUTies (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV).
ECT The Two Programs of 2P2P Don't Meet
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1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
We've already had this discussion.
Paul was in the temple during his stay with Peter, not right before the beginning of his fourth missionary journey, as you have imagined.
There wasn't enough time for yer nonsense.
Stop it already.
OUTies now? Really? :crackup:
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1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Believe it or not, it does get tiresome casting down every imagination devised by Dispy minds, but hey, I got time.
Don't know how much though.......:think:
Don't know how much though.......:think:
You sure have a lot of patience for these ignorant folks. I admire ya for that.
I have found posting with "1M1S" to be a BIG waste of time and a lot of boring conversations.
Yes they were.
You're every post begs to go there, but they lack conviction.
Not curios enough.....
This was my last point you shouldn't have left out verse 20.
Acts 11
19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus,and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
Acts 15:23
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Accuracy is what I'm all about.
Geography, yessir not a problem here.
Grecians referred to Helenized Jews.
This at times resulting in difficulties between Hebrew Jews and the Grecian ones, as in Acts 6 - way before when Luke writes the door of faith being opened to the Gentiles.
Acts 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Thus, the intended sense of the following, and why Barnabas went to seek Saul/Paul; who was an excellent cross cultural individual (being that though a Hebrew, but given his upbringing and education; he was well versed in Hebrew and Grecian; and in Greek; and Roman culture - thus, his use of the olive tree analogy in Romans 11 - it is a tree the oil of which very, very familiar to Jewish, Greek, and Italian culture to this very day).
Anyway, Acts 11 is referring to Helenized Jews...
Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. 11:20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the LORD Jesus. 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord. 11:22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch. 11:23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord. 11:24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord. 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
And Greeks often referred both to actual Greeks, and to anyone not a Jew; the result of a cultural predispostion the result of the Greek Empire's former dominance and resulting influence on both culture and language.
Mark 7:26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
Whereas with the rise of Roman Empire's own unique influence, anyone not a Roman was referred to as a Barbarian.
Sort of like how one generation of North American kids will refer to a thing in a word that former generations had referred to by some other word.
What did "drop a dime" refer to back when there were payphones and using them cost a dime?
What did that same phrase come to refer to later, within that subculture within that later generation when the use of the hallucinogen "acid" became popular.
Thus, the Apostle Paul's use of the phrase "the Greek" (referring to that part of his Acts ministry coming to an end as he was writing Romans, see Romans 15), followed by his use of the phrase "the Barbarian" (a reference to his desired ministry at Rome; Spain, and so on).
Romans 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Again, here his use of the phrase "to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" is in a historical sense: it refers to that part of that his ministry that is coming to an end as he is writing Romans...
Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
And what I mean by "that part of his ministry coming to an end" is that part of his ministry wherein he was still being used of God towards both saving some individual Jews, at the same time he was being used of God to convey to Israel as a nation that they were now just another lost, UNcircumcision nation; that AS PROPHESIED, they had fallen from their position with God as His election agency (servanthood) and during this PROPHESIED Fall of theirs, God was calling out Gentiles for His name DIRECTLY - that is; thru Israel's Prophesied FALL, rather than through Israel's Prophesied RISE.
Anyway, note again, the historical sense of Paul's Romans 1:16 use of the phrase "to the Jew, and also to the Greek..."
Romans 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. 15:17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation: 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand. 15:22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you. 15:23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you; 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.
Thus, the sense of what lied ahead for him...
Romans 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Again, personally, I continue to find these puzzles and the various views on them an ever fascinating education in the study of perception; in the study of paradigms and how they result; and so on.
Depends on where one is looking at things from - how wide their own lens is, as they look at another's assertions.
I have found I OFTEN find something of use from the opposition's opposition.
Case in point; I was reading something by a Post-Tribber on something that the Apostle John writes about in the Book of Revelation.
Though I STRONGLY disagreed with what he said, at the same time, I found something useful - that actually shed further light on something that the Apostle Paul had written about in Romans.
This, though what that individual was asserting, was in opposition to what I hold to.
I experience this "able to learn from opposition anyway" kind of thing all the time.
I know it is because I don't allow myself to have to be right.
Having to be right (exclamation point) is a sure way to end up narrow minded.
I am also able to learn from the opposition because I have absolutely no problem with agreeing with someone on something I find right, despite how often I might often disagree with them on many and or other things.
These are all decisions I knowingly made; though.
For I have friends within Mid-Acts who, who, for example, often assert one should not agree with those one often finds off-base. That doing so supposedly gives such an individual the impression they are right about other things.
That is nonsense. It is nothing more than a closed mindedness that only keeps one from learning no matter who is asserting what ever.
For example, some on here consider themselves right on one thing or another no matter how many, or how long, many assert that such an individual is wrong on some point.
Fact is, even we MADs also come up with notions at times that we also might do well to pause on, and carefully rexamine the actual validity of.
We too, are imperfect human beings, after all.
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1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Let's see if I've got this right.
Greeks are Hellenized Jews.
And maybe Heirs alien Gentiles are Barbarians.
Or maybe Romans.
That clears up everything.
Not. :dizzy:
Course yuh know them Athenians weren't Greeks, hunh?
Being Athens wasn't in Greece.:kookoo:
Hey what did Paul call them unhellenized folk?
Maybe.... God's offspring?
Greeks are Hellenized Jews.
And maybe Heirs alien Gentiles are Barbarians.
Or maybe Romans.
That clears up everything.
Not. :dizzy:
Course yuh know them Athenians weren't Greeks, hunh?
Being Athens wasn't in Greece.:kookoo:
Hey what did Paul call them unhellenized folk?
Maybe.... God's offspring?
I did not say that Greeks refers to Hellenized Jews.
Instead, I clearly said that Grecians refers to that.
Is it any wonder you put your cart before our horse.
Your preconceived slip is showing :chuckle:
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
So it wasn't Hellenized Jews speaking to Grecians?
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
My conversations are an open door, Dispensationism is a dead end cul de sac.
heir
TOL Subscriber
No "imagination" here that needs to be cast down, but yours.
Paul's first sending was not an "all men" "due time" (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV) sending (Acts 22:21 KJV) until much later as we see him all the way through the time of promise going to those IN it (Galatians 3:29 KJV) which did not include those OUT in TIME PAST (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV).
Never (2 Timothy 3:14 KJV)
Yep! The you Gentiles Paul was given the dispensation of the grace of God for (Ephesians 3:6 KJV) who were:
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were
Your skull seems to be an "Open door" as well, and your brain just opened it and walked away.
You remain a caricature :chuckle:
I wasn't disagreeing with GM.
I have posted to you in the past only to find I was dealing with a fool.
You are merely a perfect example of the very opposition I was referring to when I related to GM that I am still able to learn from such fools.
It is clear your "dead end cul de sac" remark is the remark of an individual blind to the fact that it is his he who is operating from a dead end cul de sac.
Clearly, there is a distinction made in Acts 6 of a difference between Hewbrew Jews and Helenized Jews (Grecians).
You are are obviously both highly incompetent as to the intended sense of another's words, as well as merely baiting one for your own fool enjoyment.
I have patiently laid out what I have, and have refrained from derisive language towards you only to have you continue to use your same old derisive wording even as you assert how open minded you are :crackup:
Nevertheless, thank you for having afforded me what I did despite your continued duplicity once more; I restudied these issues out in Scripture, learning a thing or two in Scripture about other things along the way.
This, despite the fool who brought up the issue that set off my restudying to begin with - you - in your repeated, never having intended any honesty on your part to begin with once more.
Lol, you ought to open a clown school - what a character you are.
:rotfl:
Paul's argument in Galatians is based on the fact of Romans 1:18-3:30.
Israel has fallen to where the Gentile was concluded back in Gen. 11 - both now UNcircumcision, or heathen, thus, Paul's ministry among both.
The distinction in the flesh between the two no longer the issue.
Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
This...
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Is this...
Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
There are two pictures of Abraham there...
One depicts when he was UNcircumcision.
The other, when after he was Circumcision.
Paul is referring to the former in Galatians.
It is James who refers to the latter of those two.
The Galatians are no more proselytes than the Romans.
Continuing his Grace Gospel point from Galatians 1 and 2, Paul adds...
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
He then goes into the same "Abraham...when he was in UNcircumcision" principle he will later write to Body members at Rome about in Romans 4 (cited above).
Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Again, Romans 4 makes it clear that "as pertaining to the flesh" this was "Abraham...when he was in UNcircumcision."
Israel has fallen to where the Gentile was concluded back in Gen. 11 - both now UNcircumcision, or heathen, thus, Paul's ministry among both.
The distinction in the flesh between the two no longer the issue.
Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
This...
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Is this...
Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
There are two pictures of Abraham there...
One depicts when he was UNcircumcision.
The other, when after he was Circumcision.
Paul is referring to the former in Galatians.
It is James who refers to the latter of those two.
The Galatians are no more proselytes than the Romans.
Continuing his Grace Gospel point from Galatians 1 and 2, Paul adds...
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
He then goes into the same "Abraham...when he was in UNcircumcision" principle he will later write to Body members at Rome about in Romans 4 (cited above).
Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Again, Romans 4 makes it clear that "as pertaining to the flesh" this was "Abraham...when he was in UNcircumcision."
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Interplanner
Well-known member
And so?
btw, you wrote:
The other, when after he was Circumcision.
Paul is referring to the former in Galatians.
In your head.
Paul is talking about all Gentiles. Why would jump books or groups and only be speaking about Galatians? This is why there is little point in talking to you.
Hah; and yet you talk to me.
Here, let me give you my book "about" what I was talking about; since it is evident once more you cannot make a thing out properly absent of some book "about" it to do your thinking for you.
Some MADs on TOL hold that the Galatians and Romans were proselytes.
That came up in posts back and forth with what's his name; Mind whatever.
I was sharing my understanding - I hold that neither were proselytes. That both were in the Body of Christ.
That both were saved.
This was why I was talking about Romans and Galatians.
Because that was brought up.
I related that Romans 4 presents a picture of Abraham when he believed God when he was in UNcircumcision.
Paul takes his assertions back to that time.
But that Romans 4 also brings up Abraham after he entered into the covenant of circumcision with God and became the father of Israel in Isaac and Jacob.
Paul is relating that though Abraham is the father of both; the only issue on the table now is the faith of Abraham back when he was in UNcircumcision.
That circumcision in the flesh status is now no longer on the table.
Again, some hold that the Romans and the Galatians were not members of the Body of Christ.
That they were Proselytes. Entered into covenant as to Abraham in that.
That this is what Paul is referring to in passages like the following...
Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
In my understanding, that first passage is referring, not to Gentiles as Proselytes; but to arrogant, unbelieving Jews.
And neither is that second passage asserting that the Galatians were Proselytes.
For again, Paul is referring to Abraham before he enterred into the covenant of circumcision.
What you might do is either bone up on this conversation, or simply stay out of what you don't know about :chuckle:
As you have often proven - you know nothing of MAD.
Does Preterism's long, long history among Universalists right away mean you are also a Universalists?
Not necessarily.
I know this because I have looked into Preterism.
You - you just spout what ever comes to your mind regarding your notions of MAD.
I try to be fair with you where I agree with you on some point, and will even defend you without hesitation.
But you sure make it trying.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Genesis 12:1-3 (KJV)
There are blessed Gentiles and cursed Gentiles (aliens).
So simple.
There are blessed Gentiles and cursed Gentiles (aliens).
So simple.
Consider that your assertion is more along the line, not of the word simple; but of the word simplistic (a thing over simplified).
Big difference.
As in the over simplification that Romans 2:17's "called a Jew" refers to the idea that Proselytes are being referred to; because that is what "thou art called" would refer to; despite the obvious flow of thought the passages as a whole point to.
Consider also, that it is 1611 Early Modern English expression (from over 500 years go); not everyday 21st Century North American vernacular (not to mention; all the various shades of North American expression of a thought).
You're complete in the Lord, though; so there is much to rejoice in with you despite your hard headness on this, brother
