ECT The Two Programs of 2P2P Don't Meet
- Thread starter Interplanner
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
You.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
How so?
As within any school of thought: there are bound to be different understandings even with adherents to a same school; it depends on which MADist you ask.
In my understanding; Ephesians 2 is based on what Paul relates about the Gentiles in Romans 1-3.
Especially earlier in the latter half of Romans 1; which relates why the Gentiles were aliens, etc., to begin with.
Some within MAD will see that differently.
The issue for me being not whether or not some Gentiles were aware that they could bless Israel for blessing in return, or that they could become Jews.
Rather, that back when Israel's commonwealth was on the table: both as the means of position and or blessing before God, the Gentiles; being that they were alians to that: nessecitated their having to go through Israel for participation in that.
But now - in Christ - for all have been concluded under sin...Israel's commonwealth is no longer.
But now IN CHRIST.
For ALL have sinned.
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
But now IN CHRIST - a NEW Creature.
For ALL have sinned.
As I noted, this is my understanding.
Some MADs may hold a different understanding of this.
Do you and yours all agree on every point you and yours discuss?
I doubt it.
Interplanner
Well-known member
This is good. it is not 2P2P which would reply that there has been a delay and there is no real unifiying basis, and the 2nd P would be brought back.
What you've described is not what Ryrie said in his chapter on 2P2P as 'sine qua none.'
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
I have found that trying to glue all scripture to a preconceived idea is not the best approach.
How much money,or intellectual pride are Dispies gonna keep sinking into a lost cause?
I don't get to shook about it, I reckon there's worse things to be spending yer time doing.
Y'all kinda remind me of ole Hoss Cartwright believin' he could play that violin cause the purdy gypsy woman told him he could.
heir
TOL Subscriber
PTL!
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
How so?
Acts 13
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
heir
TOL Subscriber
That's not you or me (Acts 13:16 KJV, Acts 13:26 KJV).
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
This occurred right after Jesus had appeared to Paul in the Temple during his fifteen day visit to Peter.
First trip back to Jerusalem......
Acts 22
17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
Galatians 1
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Lol - you and your cart before the horse preconceived notions going in - about preconceived ideas.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
That wont cut it, Sis.
You would have to have the whole city of thousands being God fearing proselytes.
The first step into the far hence journey was Antioch Pisdian just outside the coasts of Judea.
Which is where Acts 13 takes place.
We know that this takes place after Paul's first trip to Jerusalem and before his return 14 years later, by the fact that the churches in Judea had not seen Paul before.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Nope.
There was a time I had it backwards too.
Like I said, I've learned that's not the best practice.
That is what I had in mind when I posted that some MADs will hold a different understanding on some of these things.
This that you assert is also held by those within MAD: who hold Acts 13 as the starting point of Paul's Gentile ministry.
Then there are those within MAD who hold that Ephesians 2 is the beginning of a different Gentile ministry.
I hold neither of those.
It depends on
1 - where one is looking at things from (in contrast to where one only thinks one is looking at things from), and that is greatly influenced by, a combination of;
2 - one's years in Scripture, and by;
3 - how aware one has been throughout, of one's tendency to end up at conclusions that further time in Scripture would actually reveal are actually off.
It is clear to me, based on those three criteria, that the Apostle Paul already had a thriving UNcircumcision ministry years before Acts 13.
One evidence of this being the following...
Acts 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.
Galatians 1:21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
Not only was Tarsus in Cilicia, but it was a city the size of which fit Paul's ministry among the UNcircumcision perfectly: he tended to focus his efforts on cities that might then have an impact on the smaller surounding towns, etc...
Paul's assertion that Tarsus was not only in Cilicia, but that it was a city of some reknown...
Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.
Now, note the following...as to these "regions of Syria and Cilicia" that Paul relates having in invested time in, and that Acts 9 and 11 relate he had gone to.
Galatians 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 1:21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
Sometime after his time there...
Acts 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Why did Barnabas go and bring Paul back to Antioch?
Because he was the Apostle of the Gentiles...
Note the result of Paul's time in the regions of Syria and Cilicia in Acts 9...
Acts 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Acts 15:40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.
They already existed when Paul returned to confirm that the issue that had come up about the need for Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the Law was off-base.
And Paul often returns to those regions to invest time with them.
And all that is THIS SIDE of what Paul will later write about in Romans 1:18-3:20.
All that is AFTER Israel's fall.
Acts 13 is nothing more than Luke's witness through Paul that God has ALREADY concluded the following as to BOTH Israel and the Gentiles...
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
In other words, Acts 13 is one more in a series of indictements against Israel that God has already proven fact.
The fact of the matter is that the Apostle Paul already had a thriving Gentile ministry WAY BEFORE Acts 13.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
I'll look at your post closer later.
Gotta peel out and get a few things done.
I'll just say, I don't have a dog in Dispy disputes.
I said the far hence journey, maybe I shoulda emboldened it?
Far as I'm concerned there were Gentiles being converted at the dispersion of Stephens stoning.
Catch y'all later.
Gotta peel out and get a few things done.
I'll just say, I don't have a dog in Dispy disputes.
I said the far hence journey, maybe I shoulda emboldened it?
Far as I'm concerned there were Gentiles being converted at the dispersion of Stephens stoning.
Catch y'all later.
I'll look at your post closer later.
Gotta peel out and get a few things done.
I'll just say, I don't have a dog in Dispy disputes.
I said the far hence journey, maybe I shoulda emboldened it?
Far as I'm concerned there were Gentiles being converted at the dispersion of Stephens stoning.
Catch y'all later.
No, for I also had the "far hence" in mind - if I recall my geography well enough "the regions of Syria and Cilicia" were even further hence.
And no - dispute with other Dispies has never been what I have sought.
I'm too curious about another's view and its inner dynamics.
So much so that I often see something of use towards my own further understanding of a thing even though I might not hold to another's assertion.
As for your last point...
Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
This is about accuracy and or soundness, not about, as you put it; "Dispy disputes."
heir
TOL Subscriber
"almost the whole city" is that OF Jews and Greeks to whom salvation at that time was sent (Acts 13:26 KJV)/the "called" (1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV) at that time, just as "to all that be in Rome was not all inhabitants of Rome(Romans 1:17 KJV), but Jews and Greeks (Romans 1:16 KJV)/the called at that time (Romans 1:7 KJV)! That's not you or me!
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Yes they were.
You're every post begs to go there, but they lack conviction.
Not curios enough.....
This was my last point you shouldn't have left out verse 20.
Acts 11
19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus,and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
Acts 15:23
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Accuracy is what I'm all about.
Geography, yessir not a problem here.
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1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Greeks weren't Gentiles?