The Trinity

The Trinity

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glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Rosenritter said:
I acknowledge that Jesus is not limited by verse markings. But there are many places where Jesus speaks of himself and the Father, himself and the Father, himself and the Father. This pattern is carried on in the New Testament as well. I could give many examples, but for space I'll provide just a couple for demonstration:

Matthew 5:16 KJV
(16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
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Yes, Jesus speaks of the Father....the Comforter had not yet been given. His work is "behind the scenes" at this time.


1 Corinthians 1:1-3 KJV
(1) Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

If Paul, an apostle of Christ, who personally received understanding from visions of the Lord, speaks this way... I'm just saying that Paul (and other writers) don't sound very Trinitarian. If he is addressing a Trinity, why doesn't he address three members of a Trinity?
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He spends a great deal of time on the Holy Spirit, we see him alluding to his work in the yellow above.

You know that I am not being hostile. But if we acknowledge Paul as an apostle of the Lord, directly receiving revelation from visions and Jesus Christ in the spirit, if "Trinity" were something important, why wouldn't Paul say something about it? Any why wouldn't he sound more Trinitarian?
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As Jesus explained when speaking of the Holy Spirit....He will "testify of me". His work is ongoing. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the one who is to receive all the glory, and the Godhead is in agreement on this.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​

John 16:8-11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.​

So rather than moving on from the verses I offered, believe them and build on them. Why not see what is set before you instead of rushing off for further proof? The basics are there in our Lord's words, and Paul, himself builds on that foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.​
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
glorydaz said:
Yes, Jesus speaks of the Father....the Comforter had not yet been given. His work is "behind the scenes" at this time.

He spends a great deal of time on the Holy Spirit, we see him alluding to his work in the yellow above.

As Jesus explained when speaking of the Holy Spirit....He will "testify of me". His work is ongoing. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the one who is to receive all the glory, and the Godhead is in agreement on this.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​
John 16:8-11 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.​

So rather than moving on from the verses I offered, believe them and build on them. Why not see what is set before you instead of rushing off for further proof? The basics are there in our Lord's words, and Paul, himself builds on that foundation.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.​
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Maybe I should clarify what I meant. If I preach as Paul preached, then no mention of a Trinity ever comes into discussion. If we assume that Paul had a proper understanding of what occurred in the gospels (and even in visions that he said he could not relate) then this seems relevant.

When you speak of building from what Jesus said, that is what I have already done: Jesus didn't draw a Trinity diagram. It is already granted that there is some usage of metaphor: for example, if it is acknowledged that Jesus is our Creator, then any reference to God as his Father cannot be meant in our strict literal sense.

Likewise, I think that the references to God in different forms may also be metaphorical constructs. We know that we have One God and One Lord and this is emphasized and stated directly. References spoken by God about God may also require metaphorical interpretation, staying subject to the hard and fast concept of "One."

It isn't that am saying anything that I haven't already said earlier, but hopefully I am improving on the whole gentleness and tact thing.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Rosenritter said:
Maybe I should clarify what I meant. If I preach as Paul preached, then no mention of a Trinity ever comes into discussion. If we assume that Paul had a proper understanding of what occurred in the gospels (and even in visions that he said he could not relate) then this seems relevant.
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You mean like this?

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
glorydaz said:
You mean like this?

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
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Do you see Paul make any mention of a Trinity in that passage? The only way that could be construed is by first constructing a Trinity outside of scripture, and then applying that back on top of the passage to make it fit. Even with that extent it doesn't fit Trinity theology because it lacks reference to the person of the Father.

Someone posted a diagram here earlier, and I distinctly remember that it had "God" and "Father" as separate circles. "Father" and "Son" and "Holy Ghost' were in one class, but "God" was not one of the persons.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
glorydaz said:
Jesus was not limited by verse markings. He does go on to explain how He and the Father will dwell in them via the Holy Spirit - (He shall teach you all things....) The work of the Holy Spirit would begin in earnest (pardon the pun) when He came to dwell in the believer.

John 14:25-26 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:13-15 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.​
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you left out the most important verse--

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Rosenritter said:
Do you see Paul make any mention of a Trinity in that passage? The only way that could be construed is by first constructing a Trinity outside of scripture, and then applying that back on top of the passage to make it fit. Even with that extent it doesn't fit Trinity theology because it lacks reference to the person of the Father.

Someone posted a diagram here earlier, and I distinctly remember that it had "God" and "Father" as separate circles. "Father" and "Son" and "Holy Ghost' were in one class, but "God" was not one of the persons.
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So you're telling me you can't see our Truine God in that verse? :think:
 
Angel4Truth

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Rosenritter said:
Do you see Paul make any mention of a Trinity in that passage? The only way that could be construed is by first constructing a Trinity outside of scripture, and then applying that back on top of the passage to make it fit. Even with that extent it doesn't fit Trinity theology because it lacks reference to the person of the Father.

Someone posted a diagram here earlier, and I distinctly remember that it had "God" and "Father" as separate circles. "Father" and "Son" and "Holy Ghost' were in one class, but "God" was not one of the persons.
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1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
Lazy afternoon said:
you left out the most important verse--

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
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It is a triune verse. Not an Arian one. Read it again.
 
KingdomRose

KingdomRose

New member
God's Truth said:
You just don't look at the truth that says there is only one Spirit. You ignore it.
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OK, there's one spirit. And it is THE FATHER'S spirit. If Christ has it, it is because the Father GAVE him some!

"For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you." (Matt.10:20, NASB)

So whose Spirit is it? The Father's.


"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me, Because Jehovah did anoint me to proclaim tidings to the humble...(etc.)" (Isaiah 61:1; applied by Jesus to himself, as the one being anointed, at Luke 4:17-21, Young's Literal Translation)
 
KingdomRose

KingdomRose

New member
God's Truth said:
Jesus was still a Man in the flesh when he said that. Being in the flesh is to be made lower.
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No, you are wrong. The Scriptures show that even after Jesus went back to heaven as a mighty spirit, he was still subordinate to his Father. When Paul wrote letters to the Corinthians, Jesus was in heaven again.

"I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ." (I Corinthians 11:3, NASB)


Notice that when he was back in heaven and relaying the Revelation to John, Jesus called the Father "my God." God doesn't have a God.

"'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will not go out from it anymore, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God.'" (Rev.3:12, NASB)

Are you going to ignore that too?
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
lifeisgood said:
Ah, what happened, gt? You really needed that long to use your read for comprehension?
Do you ONLY use your reading for comprehension when it is convenient for you?

How come you understand that here Jesus is not talking LITERALLY being a physical literal door?

How come, you, gt, do not understand Paul is doing the same thing as Jesus? Paul is NOT LITERALLY saying that Jesus is LITERALLY the Spirit, the same way Jesus is NOT LITERALLY saying He is a LITERAL door.

If you insist that Paul said that Jesus is LITERALLY the Spirit, then you have to insist that Jesus said He LITERALLY is a literal door as you demand vehemently that the Bible must be read LITERALLY.

So, in conclusion, you, gt, use whatever method you, gt, deem is what has to be for everybody else and you insist that same method is NOT for you.

And please do not come back with your usual 'how dare you not do what I, gt, demand of everybody else but when it comes to me, I, gt, DO NOT insist that for myself, only for others.'
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Paul was not lying and neither was Jesus.

Jesus is literally the Spiritual door, and Jesus is literally the Spirit.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
KingdomRose said:
OK, there's one spirit. And it is THE FATHER'S spirit. If Christ has it, it is because the Father GAVE him some!

"For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you." (Matt.10:20, NASB)

So whose Spirit is it? The Father's.


"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me, Because Jehovah did anoint me to proclaim tidings to the humble...(etc.)" (Isaiah 61:1; applied by Jesus to himself, as the one being anointed, at Luke 4:17-21, Young's Literal Translation)
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Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
KingdomRose said:
No, you are wrong. The Scriptures show that even after Jesus went back to heaven as a mighty spirit,
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As a mighty spirit? The Bible says that he is THE SPIRIT.


KingdomRose said:
he was still subordinate to his Father.
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God the Father came as a Man and was and is subordinate.

KingdomRose said:
When Paul wrote letters to the Corinthians, Jesus was in heaven again.

"I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ." (I Corinthians 11:3, NASB)
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Jesus is the Christ. That means he is the Man God.

KingdomRose said:
Notice that when he was back in heaven and relaying the Revelation to John, Jesus called the Father "my God." God doesn't have a God.
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God came as a Man, and that Man obeyed His Father and was exalted to the highest place.

KingdomRose said:
"'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will not go out from it anymore, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God.'" (Rev.3:12, NASB)

Are you going to ignore that too?
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I don't ignore any scripture.

You do though, you ignore scripture. The Bible plainly says that the Lord is the Spirit, many times we see this. Why do you ignore the scriptures?
 
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