The Trinity

The Trinity


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JudgeRightly

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"Trinity" is something completely different. It's not a word from the Bible, it's not a concept that is defined in the bible. If you read Justin Martyr from the 2nd century when he speaks of God and Jesus to the Jew, it doesn't sound like he's ever heard of a "Trinity."

See my comment above directed at Moon.

Jesus had some harsh words for the religious leaders of the day that made up their own laws and placed them upon people. The intent seemed good at first, to put a "fence" about the law, but it wasn't what God had commanded nor intended. Don't try to make up more than what was given. Perhaps a "Trinity" model helps you in some way, but it this wasn't given or commanded of anyone else.

There's a difference between putting a wall around the Law and clearly defining what the Bible teaches.

If you can clearly define what you mean, and show how accepting your idea will help Christian faith and practice in our real world and our real lives, then that is the better case to make.

Well for starters, accepting that God is triune would help greatly with the argument, since we are made in His image as tripartite creatures, that abortion is wrong. We are body (soma), soul (psyche), and spirit (pneuma). It would help against the argument that we evolved, because humans are the only creatures, as created in the image of our Creator, that we are tripartite.

It would help against false religion and philosophies. From kgov.com/three:


And thus, the triune Christian God, the mystery of the Trinity, Three Persons in One God, is the only true God. And even theoretically, unlike the unitarian Allah and any of the alleged pagan idols, the God of the Bible is the only one whose testimony we would be able to trust, for*His triunity answers*both the philosophical problem of*the one and the manyand it answers Socrates' challenge against theism titled Euthyphro's Dilemma. For,*how could God Himself know that He is good, and not evil? Allah could not know that. But with the Triune God, the Son testifies that for eternity past, the Father has never wronged the Son, and the Father of the Spirit, and the Spirit of the Son, an eternal, threefold testimony, for by the testimony of three witnesses, the matter is established.


By the way, you could probably find more things that God's triunity helps the Christian Faith with on kgov.com/three.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Only in your confused mind did that happen.

You must be having me mixed up with marhigs beliefs.

The saved's blood does not take away the sins of the world.

How would you get get that I say the saved are God?

Answer that now or admit you are a false accuser.

Jesus' body is God's body in the flesh.
First; that isn't what I said. Second you equate the body of Jesus to the fullness of GOD.

what is the body of Christ now at this time?

There is your answer.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
To the serious Reader, notice the scriptures I gave in the post that pops replied to me with false accusations, he didn't even address the scriptures I gave. More proof of a contentious person who says I says things that I do not.
What accusation did I make?

What contention are you speaking of?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Here's the word as it is.

Jesus Christ himself spreaking

John 17

And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD , and Jesus Christ, whom THOU hast sent.

I hope you see the truth one day instead of being fooled the false trinity chirchianity doctrine. You just have to look at their leaders to know it is false, they are nothing like Jesus, all pomp and ceremony. Jesus looked just like everyone else. No fine robes or gold, no statues to bow down to, nothing only his complete love for the father, his riches were inwardly and they poured out from him to all who listened and believed.

I agree that the Spirit of GOD created all things. I believe the firstfruits to be the Alpha and the judge of all to be the Omega, which is too the Christ / Spirit of GOD.

I understand that you don't believe me when I say my faith was given to me by GOD, and due to such, i personally am not seeking understanding through carnality. I was given spiritual insight and discernment by GOD, not any man or sacred text.

Please stop making assumptions about me that are unfounded.

:popcorn:

One day these foolish ones will bow before the majesty of the ONE TRUE GOD, and they shall see Him as He is....more, MUCH MORE, than the suffering servant they refuse to acknowledge as God come in the flesh. :nono:

Rev. 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.​

How can you deny what is plainly written from Genesis through Revelation?

Rev. 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.​
 

Bright Raven

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First; that isn't what I said. Second you equate the body of Jesus to the fullness of GOD.

what is the body of Christ now at this time?

There is your answer.
Colossians 2:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 
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God's Truth

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Is that your attempt at an explanation AMD expounding upon your belief?

Doesn't seem very eager to explain to me.

I have already explained it in depth, but you didn't care about it.

I will post it again.

There were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the righteous.

After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19).

Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6).

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.

Jesus came to earth and taught those on earth. Then Jesus descended to the spirits in prison to preach to them, to those who disobeyed long ago. Jesus then ascended higher than all the heavens. Jesus filled the whole universe (see Ephesians 4:10).

These scriptures show we have living, thinking spirits that live on after the death of the body. Some spirits go with those who disobey, and spirits of the righteous live in heaven. These scriptures show that our spirits live on, and how Jesus filled the whole universe.
 

Rosenritter

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Rosey, did you notice that what you've listed is what Jesus taught concerning the law, and believers are no longer under the law? We see lots of people right here on TOL that don't understand why Jesus preached what He did while here on earth.

It doesn't mean that others of us don't understand Law versus Grace. It's the same with God being Triune....a Trinity.

If you think that "Love thy neighbor" and "forgive others so that you may be forgiven" and "repent lest ye likewise perish" is "law that you are not subject to" then you are in a dangerous place, and between the two of us, it's not me that lacks understanding of the law and grace.
 
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Rosenritter

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Scripture itself shows us God is Triune and the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE. You accept what Thomas said, but you reject verses that speak of the Holy Spirit being God in the exact same way. That's your error. And it's not a small one.

1. If you simply mean "these three are one" then I can agree that God is Triune, Tri- meaning "three" and "-une" meaning "one."

2. Yes, I do accept what Thomas said. So did Jesus. Thank you for the acknowledgment.

3. No, I do not reject verses that speak of the Holy Spirit being God in the exact same way. Technically the passages do not actually speak of the Holy Spirit of being God in the exact same way, but I understand the Holy Spirit as God just the same, just as I understand Jesus as God and He whom was called the Father. My right eye and my left eye do not see the same object in exactly the same way, yet I understand these to be the same object.

Where did you get the idea that I designated the Holy Spirit as some sort of inferior god substance?

That's your error. And it's not a small one.

No, Glory, that's actually your error. If you are not sure about what someone thinks or believes, it's better to ask them.
 
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Rosenritter

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It's only different because Godhead is used instead of Trinity, and the nature of God has been revealed to us throughout the Bible. From beginning to end.....hundreds of verses. Someone decided to give that name to the fact of God's nature as it has been revealed. The Godhead speaks of God's nature. And our Lord and Saviour makes it clear....And, I might add, uses the same word that is used in Genesis concerning making man in OUR image. Same with US and WE.

"WE will come to him, and make OUR abode with him." How exactly do the Father and Son come to dwell in them but through sending the Holy Spirit?
John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make OUR abode with him."​

Now, if you can't see the ONE God in three distinct "persons", there is something wrong with you. You see the "I" for Jesus, "Father", and "he" for the Holy Spirit (Comforter).
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.​

"Godhead" is not the same as "Trinity" and there is a difference. "Godhead" is the nature, form, or essential qualities of God. Perhaps that definition needs a little nailing down, but "Trinity" is a man-made metaphysical model of that Godhead.

Now, if you can't see the ONE God in three distinct "persons", there is something wrong with you. You see the "I" for Jesus, "Father", and "he" for the Holy Spirit (Comforter).

I certainly do not see three distinct persons. Should you wish to criticize (as it seems you do) then please provide your very specific definition for person. If I use the definition for person as supplied for us by scripture, God consists of only one person. If you intend another meaning, please provide it. I cannot agree with the definition provided by James White or Bright Raven as they apply it to "Trinity."

Heb 1:1-3 KJV
(1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
(2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

That's the only passage I know of that refers to God in the sense of person or persons or people. Notice that it says "person" and not "persons" and as this represents the only explicit declaration of such, God is one person, singular, which is completely in line with the rest of scripture that says to us, "The LORD your God is one LORD." Jesus is the express image of the person of our God. One person.

It does not say that Jesus is a person of God. It does not say that the Father is a person of God. It does not say that the Holy Spirit is a person of God. It never says anything close to resembling that God is three persons, and exclusively three persons. It says that God is a person, not two people, not three people, not a hundred people. One person, singular.

If you will fault me for sticking by the scripture, then so be it. That's where I will stand unless you can show me the scripture defines this otherwise.
 

Rosenritter

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Nice try, Rosie. I'm not raging, and if you're insulted, that's your problem not mine. It's a fact that cults deny the deity of Christ, a denial of God....we see that right here. It's a fact that denying the Holy Spirit is a denial of God, as well.


SO.....You can't shut me up with your hypocritical tongue lashing, especially since you are probably on the top of the list for being two faced. I can't be shamed by those who come amongst us in wolf's clothing, and I won't ignore your pointy ears and bushy tail, either.

I simply preach the word and it, alone, has the power to persuade anyone. So, I must chuckle at your feeble attempt to put me on a guilt trip. :chuckle:

This from someone who claims that "love thy neighbor" and "repentance" and "forgiveness" and "peace" are outdated concepts of the law that do not apply to them?
 

Rosenritter

New member
See my comment above directed at Moon.

I am not Moon, and you didn't direct that at me in response to what I said. I don't think that you were entirely wrong, but I don't think you were entirely right either. Elohim does not mean that God is three (or two or four) god-beings calling themselves one God. One of his names is the LORD of Hosts, and if God is the God of the gods, then Elohim (plural) is inclusive of the LORD as he also represents the sum of the loyal angels. Angels could also be called elohim as well, could they not?

There's a difference between putting a wall around the Law and clearly defining what the Bible teaches.

Eighteen hundred years of history and nine hundred pages on this thread and still no explicit statement from the Bible as to a Trinity. But I appreciate that you're addressing the substance of my question: can you show this belief helpful?

Well for starters, accepting that God is triune would help greatly with the argument, since we are made in His image as tripartite creatures, that abortion is wrong. We are body (soma), soul (psyche), and spirit (pneuma). It would help against the argument that we evolved, because humans are the only creatures, as created in the image of our Creator, that we are tripartite.

1. Yet somehow I don't need a belief in a Triune God to know that abortion is wrong. Even if I did not already understand this by the spirit of God within me, we have "Thou shalt not kill." Regardless, you also have Trinitarians that advocate abortion.

2. Even if we assume that God was "Triune" the passage does not say that this is what is meant by being made in the image of God. I think it is a more obvious interpretation that this image refers to our mental and spiritual aspects of our character, including logic, reason, emotion, and moral responsibility, even the ability to choose between rebellion and obedience, our capacity and potential for worship.

3. I cannot see "Trinity" as being a help with the concept of evolution. Even accepting the premise that the question of special creation vs evolution is important to our society (which I do agree with) I really don't see a linkage. Besides this, there are a great many Trinitarians that have accepted "evolution" so in reality that doesn't seem to work that way.

It would help against false religion and philosophies. From kgov.com/three:

And thus, the triune Christian God, the mystery of the Trinity, Three Persons in One God, is the only true God. And even theoretically, unlike the unitarian Allah and any of the alleged pagan idols, the God of the Bible is the only one whose testimony we would be able to trust, for*His triunity answers*both the philosophical problem of*the one and the manyand it answers Socrates' challenge against theism titled Euthyphro's Dilemma. For,*how could God Himself know that He is good, and not evil? Allah could not know that. But with the Triune God, the Son testifies that for eternity past, the Father has never wronged the Son, and the Father of the Spirit, and the Spirit of the Son, an eternal, threefold testimony, for by the testimony of three witnesses, the matter is established.


By the way, you could probably find more things that God's triunity helps the Christian Faith with on kgov.com/three.

The ancient Greek philosophers aren't really a good tool to show how a Trinity would answer questions to keep us safe from philosophy? I don't know why that question has importance. It's not whether God could know that he is Good, it's whether we can know that God is good that matters.

Regardless, how does belief in a "Trinity" answer that God could know he is Good? If I took your example of "having never been wronged by that other person" I could also say the same for cannibal tribes like the pack led by Sawney Bean that only preyed on outsiders.

As for the question of keeping us safe from philosophy, the Trinity concept seems an awful lot like philosophy itself.

JudgeRightly, I'm not saying this for the sake of being argumentative. I think you haven't yet stated the more obvious answer and I'm hoping you'll include it as well. I'd like to discuss that answer, as well as any others that come up. I think this line of discussion does have merit, as it is considering the fruits of the doctrine, which is a valid test.
 
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Rosenritter

New member
Nice try, Rosie. I'm not raging, and if you're insulted, that's your problem not mine. It's a fact that cults deny the deity of Christ, a denial of God....we see that right here. It's a fact that denying the Holy Spirit is a denial of God, as well.

SO.....You can't shut me up with your hypocritical tongue lashing, especially since you are probably on the top of the list for being two faced. I can't be shamed by those who come amongst us in wolf's clothing, and I won't ignore your pointy ears and bushy tail, either.

I simply preach the word and it, alone, has the power to persuade anyone. So, I must chuckle at your feeble attempt to put me on a guilt trip. :chuckle:

Mat 7:15-17 KJV
(15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Gal 5:22-23 KJV
(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
(23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Mat 7:18-20 KJV
(18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
 
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