The Trinity

[Rosenritter]

You are one of the people I am defending myself against. Now get off me lady. You starting stuff all over again? I didn't even make that post to you. You look for any opportunity to slander and accuse. If you don't see an opportunity you make one up.

Reading your post reminds me on an undisciplined mastiff pup growling at itself in the mirror.

 

[Tambora]

Then what of those reported to have pleased GOD and to have been without flaw or sin such as Job, Enoch, Noah, John the Baptizer, Elias, Abraham, Abel, and others?

None of those guys ever claimed to be sinless.

In fact, long after all those guys lived (except for John), we read in the OT:

1 Kings 8:46 KJV
(46) If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;


And I'm sure you are familiar with the same being stated in the NT.


1 John 1:8 KJV
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.





Some were, however, called 'righteous'.

But then, once again, we have:

Isaiah 64:6 KJV
(6) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[Rosenritter]

He means we can see the father because the father was seen in his fullness, by the full power of the Spirit through Christ Jesus.

So, didn't you read those verses I quoted?

I don't think that is the best answer. The response Jesus gave in "have you been with me this long" implies that it was personal knowledge that he was talking about, not merely an impersonal "power of Spirit."

John 14:7-9 KJV
(7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
(8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
(9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

What he says afterwards demonstrates that the knowledge he is talking about isn't about the power. He says believe me, or else believe for the very works sake. If it was about power, then works would be the only proof, not a "if you won't believe me because you know me, then go to the signs as evidence."

I think the more natural way to read that is just as it sounds. "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me?"

 

[Rosenritter]

Yes Jesus was in the flesh, and he was able to be tempted as we are, as we can see from the scriptures, but he lived by the will of God, and not by his own will, and because of this, the Father gave him power over all flesh.

I see it very much as you do, but, I don't believe that Jesus is the father, even in heaven. They are clearly the father and the Son and I believe that this is shown right through the new testament.

That's how I believe it to be anyway. going by the many many verses from the scriptures. Many of which I have posted

Jesus already had power over all flesh. He performed miracles under his own power. He had the power to call down angels from heaven to keep him from the cross. Think about those implications for a moment. Jesus could have chosen not to go to the cross, and he still would have had power over the angels. He had life in himself unconditionally, he had power over the angels unconditionally.

Matthew 26:52-54 KJV
(52) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
(53) Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
(54) But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


Read that statement again: Jesus had that power unconditionally. He could have prevented the cross by exercising that privilege, which by definition, would have been disobedience. Had a man chose to abandon his task, God would have sent a fish to swallow him if necessary. If God considers abandoning a task, it is his own will and discipline that keeps him there, but he keeps his power regardless.

Yes, God has considered going back before. Israel could have been destroyed and started again from Moses.

 

[Rosenritter]

Here she is....back to being her real self. Can't wear that white wash for too long, can ya? :chuckle:

It's so frustrating on more than one level. Even from a strategic point of view, if you were truly an enemy, she had an opportunity to make you look bad: all she had to do was to be contrary and act courteously towards you. Maybe she's being kind towards you by acting aggressive? No, I'm overthinking it.

 

[Rosenritter]

Maybe you should read the verses the say that the Son is under subjection to God, and that's after he's back in heaven with the father!

So do you believe that Jesus is the father too?

Marhig, if Jesus was said to not be in subjection to the Father (even in heaven) that would be evidence that he was a different person. Being in subjection is exactly what you would expect if he were ultimately the same being, reunited back to his natural and holy form.

 

[glorydaz]

The reward IS eternal life.

Read this scripture. Paul explains how we are to go into strict training to get a crown that will last forever. That is about eternal life.


1 Corinthians 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.


Read this scripture. Jesus says clearly that the crown is life. lol Oh how I love God's Word.

Revelation 2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor's crown.

You have an evil chuckle.... :sigh:

The gift of God is eternal life. A GIFT is not a reward. A reward is something we earn.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Rewards are extra.

There are several crowns (five recognized by most believers) - the crown of rejoicing, the martyr's crown, the crown of righteousness, the crown of glory, and something else I can't remember. Paul withstood so much persecution and longed for the Lord's appearing...he hoped for the crown of righteousness. Clearly, Paul understood the righteousness of faith, but this crown was for faithfulness under duress.

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.​

The crown of life is the martyr's crown....faithful unto death.

Revelation 2:10
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.​

 

[glorydaz]

It's so frustrating on more than one level. Even from a strategic point of view, if you were truly an enemy, she had an opportunity to make you look bad: all she had to do was to be contrary and act courteously towards you. Maybe she's being kind towards you by acting aggressive? No, I'm overthinking it.

She has issues. I don't think she knows why she does what she does....conflicted is the best I can figure. But I've spent years hoping and praying she'll listen. Many have tried. :idunno:

 

[Rosenritter]

WHAT?

so if GOD IS spirit and GOD is the Father then the Father is Spirit.


Real simple stuff here.

Please do attempt to show my misunderstanding some other way, because that just didn't cut it.

And whoever gave it a thumbs up didn't think for themselves.

God is spirit, there are many spirits and he is the father of spirits, but when you speak of THE Spirit, and designate it as being different from all the rest as in THE Holy Spirit, that seems to me to be a very simple and direct way of referring to the One God. "The Father" if you will, but we usually use "The Holy Spirit" in the context of when God works with and through us.

Glory, this seems like intuitive language. Why would there need to be specific scriptural support? Regardless, if you want scriptural support, then answer this question; who begat the Son of God? The Father, or the Holy Spirit? If you pick one, I can contradict you with scripture supporting the other.

 

[Rosenritter]

Read this scripture. Jesus says clearly that the crown is life. lol Oh how I love God's Word.

Do you even care how irreverent you sound?

 

[God's Truth]

You have an evil chuckle.... :sigh:

The gift of God is eternal life. A GIFT is not a reward. A reward is something we earn.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Rewards are extra.

There are several crowns (five recognized by most believers) - the crown of rejoicing, the martyr's crown, the crown of righteousness, the crown of glory, and something else I can't remember. Paul withstood so much persecution and longed for the Lord's appearing...he hoped for the crown of righteousness. Clearly, Paul understood the righteousness of faith, but this crown was for faithfulness under duress.

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.​

The crown of life is the martyr's crown....faithful unto death.

Revelation 2:10
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.​

Jesus and Paul are talking about a crown that is eternal life.

I will gladly tell you more about the reward being eternal life.

Colossians 3:24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

The reward is the inheritance which is eternal life.

Hebrews 9:15

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

 

[God's Truth]

In case you still are not sure the inheritance is eternal life, which is our reward, read and study these scriptures, there should be no more doubt after reading them.

Matthew 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Luke 10:25[ The Parable of the Good Samaritan ] On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

 

[Rosenritter]

Then what of those reported to have pleased GOD and to have been without flaw or sin such as Job, Enoch, Noah, John the Baptizer, Elias, Abraham, Abel, and others?

None of those are said to be without flaw or sin. I can think of a confusing sounding passage in Ezekiel 14:14, but God convicts Job of self-righteousness, and Noah has an instance recorded where he passed out drunk. We also have a passage telling us that all have sinned, and fallen short of the righteousness of God.

Romans 3:22-23 KJV
(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[popsthebuilder]

Yes.

Yes.

Father is one of the many names of, what we sometimes refer to as, the 1st person of the Godhead..


Any of the 3 can properly be called God.
And while any human example is going to be lacking, I will use this scenario to sorta explain how.
(Remember, I am trinitarian, so I believe in the 3 persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) as one unity (as in one family, one nation, one council, etc).

Mother, Father, Son = one family (one unity consisting of 3 persons).
The family name is Smith, so each of them can be called 'Smith', but also have names that distinguish one from another.

Pretty sure parenthesis denote additions.



Genesis: 6. 9. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis: 17. 1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

1 Kings: 11. 4. For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

1 Kings: 15. 14. But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

1 Chronicles: 29. 9. Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.

Job: 1. 1. There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.


Job: 1. 8. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job: 1. 8. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job: 1. 22. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

1 John: 3. 9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Did I misunderstand, or did you say none were perfect? Because scripture says there were some who were perfect.

 

[Rosenritter]

Pretty sure parenthesis denote additions.



Genesis: 6. 9. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis: 17. 1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

1 Kings: 11. 4. For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

1 Kings: 15. 14. But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

1 Chronicles: 29. 9. Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.

Job: 1. 1. There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.


Job: 1. 8. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job: 1. 8. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job: 1. 22. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

1 John: 3. 9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Did I misunderstand, or did you say none were perfect? Because scripture says there were some who were perfect.

1. How was Noah called perfect? Was he perfect in being without sin, or was he perfect in his generations? The context preceding included sons of God taking daughters of men to wife.

2. Abraham was commanded to be perfect. But so is everyone else. Jesus said, "Be thou therefore perfect...."

3. David was certainly not perfect with regards to sin. David sinned, and God sent a plague.

4. Job is a little less clear cut. I've always heard it explained that Job had an issue with being self-righteous, and that God used Satan's challenge to produce good in this regard. That may not be the best explanation so if someone has another take on this point I wouldn't mind hearing it.

 

[marhig]

Ms. Mary; could you please reference the verses you speak of about the Christ of GOD being in subjection under GOD after ascension to Heaven? Thanks

1 Corinthians 15

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.*Then*cometh*the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.*For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.*The last enemy*that*shall be destroyed*is*death.*For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under*him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.*And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Corinthians 11

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

Matthew 28

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Why was all power given unto him? Given unto him from whom?

And God is the God of Christ Jesus even after the resurrection

Revelation 3

Revelation Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

[marhig]

2 Corinthians: 7. 5. For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears. 6. Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus;

2 Corinthians: 1. 3. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4. Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

John: 16. 7. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

(So comforter being capitalized here doesn't denote God? You agree that the Holy Spirit is a holy spirit and that God is a holy spirit right?)

John: 15. 25. But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. 26. But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27. And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John: 14. 1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 23. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 28. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

(to me I can see clearly how Jesus is saying that he is not equal to the Father while a man, but that He is of the Father and goes back to being with the Father.

Also; comforter seems synonymous with both father and son and Holy Spirit.)

Zechariah: 1. 17. Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

Hosea: 2. 12. And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them. 13. And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD. 14. Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. 15. And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. 16. And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. 17. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. 18. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. 19. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. 20. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. 21. And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;

Jeremiah: 31. 11. For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. 12. Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all. 13. Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow. 14. And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the LORD.

( I know that was a lot of scripture. But I can't justly say that the Comforter isn't synonymous with Lord, LORD, and of course, the Holy Spirit.

Could you give another verse that shows that the Holy Spirit isn't the Spirit of GOD? )

Pops, I believe that the father and Christ dwell in our hearts through the Holy Spirit. So yes the father is the comforter, because the Spirit only speaks what he is given to speak

John 16

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear,*that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew*it*unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew*it*unto you

So the Spirit does not speak of himself, thus he speaks what God gives him to speak, through Christ.. All the the father has, has been given to the son, and the only way to the father is through the son. God has set the son over everything, he has given him all authority over the heavens and the earth, so whom would have given Christ Jesus all authority if he already is God himself? Christ Jesus is not the Almighty God, only the father is the Almighty God. And Jesus is the Christ his son, even after he has gone back to the father and risen from the dead. And he is set at the right hand of God, so he's not God and he's not the father, but the Holy son of the living God.

 

[marhig]

Do you see how you are borderline limiting the capacities of an all powerful all knowing Spirit to fit into limited comprehension?

I do agree that we cannot witness the utter fullness of GOD though.

No, how am I doing that? Thanks

 

[marhig]

Marhig, "we" and "our" would be appropriate as God was in two different forms at that time. In heaven, and on earth. Before you are so hasty as to allege schizophrenia, I would appreciate your considering of a similar instance below:

2 Corinthians 12:1-5 KJV
(1) It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
(4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
(5) Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.


In this passage Paul is speaking of himself as two different persons. There is "myself" and "I" as one person, and "such a man" and "he" as another. He even says he would glory that man, but not himself. And this instance is quite a bit less complicated than God manifest in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
(16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 1:10-11 KJV
(10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
(11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.



I think I've explained why arguments of persons or pronouns cannot be decisive on this question. Even in mundane cases (such as Paul) we find occasion to apply (possibly confusing) language depending on the circumstance. If we believe the scripture, God was manifest in the flesh, he created the world and he came into that world. He is the Rock and the first and the last besides which there is no God.

From what I've seen so far, most (if not all) of your objections are based on arguments of pronouns and persons, questions easily answered with an understanding that Jesus was being purposely vague while he was on the earth. He spoke in parable, not so that they would understand, but specifically so that they would not understand.

What i have not heard you address is when Jesus speaks clearly and directly for purposes of identification, even when Paul and John do make direct statements. Regardless of any other arguments that may exist, I believe that this is the factor that ends all debate. Your other argument(s) are non-conclusive, and as such they cannot outweigh direct statements.

Can you explain why John writes as he does in his first chapter if Jesus were anyone else but our Creator? Or why Jesus would explain his power over the demons that "he beheld Satan fall from heaven like lightning" or why he would call himself the first and the last, the beginning and the end? Is there some moral reason why you would not have Jesus as your Lord and God but would insist on someone else? Please, move away from the non-conclusive argument and let's move to the areas where I haven't heard from you yet.

I'm not up for the personal attack route, but I would like to fairly exchange questions and answers. Thanks.

Yes God was manifest in flesh, through Jesus Christ, and Christ is manifest in flesh through us, but that doesn't make us Christ. And God manifest in Christ Jesus doesn't make Christ Jesus God! For God was in him, reconciling the world into himself, and Christ is in his people still reconciling others to God by the power of the Spirit.

 

[marhig]

I don't think that is the best answer. The response Jesus gave in "have you been with me this long" implies that it was personal knowledge that he was talking about, not merely an impersonal "power of Spirit."

John 14:7-9 KJV
(7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
(8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
(9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

What he says afterwards demonstrates that the knowledge he is talking about isn't about the power. He says believe me, or else believe for the very works sake. If it was about power, then works would be the only proof, not a "if you won't believe me because you know me, then go to the signs as evidence."

I think the more natural way to read that is just as it sounds. "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me?"

Yes because the father was in him. Not that he is the father. Look at this

John 14

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.* Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou*then, Shew us the Father?*Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.