Rosenritter
New member
And where might those occurrences be?
Ah yes, we've been talking about those appearances, have you forgotten, you've failed miserably at responding back to my point regarding your reasoning.
Jacob wrestled with a man who implied he was God - Gen 32:28
Jacob stated "I have seen God face-to-face" - Gen 32:30
Yet
Jacob asked God what his name was even though he already knew Gods name - Compare Gen 28:16, Gen 32:29
So answer me, if Jacob knew that the angel was Jehovah stating he saw God face-to-face, why ask what his name was?
As evidenced in God's answer back to Jacob, "why do you ask my name?" But since you insist, I'll spell this out you :
1. Jacob showed a spot of self-doubt or lack of faith, similar to when Peter walked on water and then faltered. In order to ask for the blessing in the first place, Jacob had to have known who he was dealing with. This blessing was asked in faith, nothing wavering.
2. The answer is self-evident from the name given to Jacob. The name that was given him had meaning, and the passage translates that meaning for us:
Genesis 32:28 KJV
(28) And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Jacob had prevailed over men before, but he had certainly never had power with God and prevailed before. The only way this would have application is through his recent struggle, even when his thigh was supernaturally dislocated.
3. The answer is self-evident from the answer he received. Why do you first ask for my blessing, knowing what that implies, and then ask for my name? You already know. You knew to ask the blessing, you know the meaning of the name that was given you.
4. The answer is self-evident from Jacob's understanding of what happened, for he named the place Peniel.
Genesis 32:30 KJV
(30) And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
So it would seem from Jacob's naming of the event, that came out of that with a different understanding than what you just advocated.
NWL, you and I both know why this point is being debated. The JW theology has a vital assumption that God cannot and will not ever make personal appearance before men or on this earth. I'm telling you that that specific assumption is not biblical, it's not gospel, nor was it the understanding of the Hebrew patriarchs.
I've just given four numbered points as to why Jacob knew he had wrestled with the LORD in the flesh. I'm sure he didn't know why he was randomly attacked at first, but by the end he knows enough to ask for his blessing in faith, the name that is given him identifies him as one who has power with God and prevailed, the being he wrestled dismisses his request that he name himself after all that because it is obviously unnecessary now, and Jacob sums up the event as "I have seen God, and lived."
Somehow, your interpretation differs from that of Jacob. I am inclined to believe Jacob.