The Trinity

[glorydaz]

Because this was too lengthy to read?

Spoiler

Originally Posted by Rosenritter
See here, GT, I didn't actually accuse you of anything. I did indirectly point out that you were being terribly offensive to a lot of people. I doubt that's a false observation. Shall we take a poll?

If you think you aren't being offensive to people, take a look back through your posts during the last twenty-four hours. I tried to indirectly help a few days back with a light joke and you took offense and attacked me as well.

I'm likely one of the few people on this board that comes closest to understanding and/or agreeing with what you mean, but because of your spirit and demeanor, I don't want to be associated with you.

James 3:15-18 KJV
(15) This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
(16) For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
(17) But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
(18) And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Pot calling the kettle black?

 

[glorydaz]

Define Lord

Define LORD

There is only one true GOD, he Father.


Suggest you look up the words Lord and LORD.

Jesus Christ is the Christ of God.
He is the promised savour.
He is the son of God.
He is a creation, a creature NOT God.

Jesus is our Lord, made so by his and our God.

Deal with it.

The Lord your God is ONE LORD.

 

[marhig]

At the point of death Jesus did NOT "go straight to God." He was DEAD and stayed that way for three days. Then he was resurrected by God and stayed on the earth for another 40 days. Check the scriptures. He did say that he commended his spirit to the Father, and he "gave up the spirit," but that simply meant that the spirit that he had was the life-force given by the Father to keep him alive, not something that separated from him at death and was conscious somewhere else. There is nothing in the account about his death and resurrection that indicates that he went "straight to God" and took the thief with him! Luke 23:43 is sadly misconstrued because of a lousy comma! Take the comma out (there are no punctuation marks in Greek) and you have Jesus simply telling the thief that he would be in Paradise....not "today," but eventually---when he got into his kingdom.

I believe the Jesus means exactly what he said. He said into your hands I commend MY spirit, his own spirit. I am a spirit in a body of flesh as are you. Stephen said the same when he died only he prayed to God and then said Lord Jesus into thy hands I commit my Spirit. I believe that our spirit goes straight to God at the point of death. There's no lying in graves etc, once we are risen with Christ there is no death, I believe that we come out of this body and go to God, for him give us a place for us to be. My uncle used to say that it will be like walking from one room to the next.

And yes, I truly believe that the thief went to be with God in that day, the moment he left his body, I believe that heaven is a state that we are lifted into when we walk in the Spirit and are taken out of this world, it is a place of peace, love and light, and that we enter into complete peace, love and light with God after death.

Jesus was in heaven when he was on the earth, he was not of this world, and we enter into heaven once we are born of God and we are filled with his Spirit who takes us out of this world and it should mean nothing to us anymore.

 

[marhig]

I agree but make no distinction between the two as the Christ is no longer a man and is one with the father in spirit.

I would still maintain similar distinctions to your own when speaking of Jesus of Nazareth as he walked as man on earth.

peace friend

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But pops, we are at one with the Father and Christ in Spirit once we are born of God on this lifetime. Yet we are distinct from God. So do you believe that Christ is the father? What do you mean when you say you make no distinction between the two? Thank you.

I believe that they are different spirits but as one in nature, and full of love, mercy and forgiveness. As are those be who are truly born of God and walk in the Spirit in this lifetime and they are one with them.

But I still believe that the father is above all, and Christ is in subjection to him, as it says in the Bible, and the father has given authority to Christ Jesus and put him above all in heaven, and God is the head of Christ, and Christ is the head of man. And the father is God who is above all, through all, and in all that belong to him.

That's how I see it from reading the Bible.

 

[popsthebuilder]

But pops, we are at one with the Father and Christ in Spirit once we are born of God on this lifetime. Yet we are distinct from God. So do you believe that Christ is the father? What do you mean when you say you make no distinction between the two? Thank you.

I believe that they are different spirits but as one in nature, and full of love, mercy and forgiveness. As are those be who are truly born of God and walk in the Spirit in this lifetime and they are one with them.

But I still believe that the father is above all, and Christ is in subjection to him, as it says in the Bible, and the father has given authority to Christ Jesus and put him above all in heaven, and God is the head of Christ, and Christ is the head of man. And the father is God who is above all, through all, and in all that belong to him.

That's how I see it from reading the Bible.

I simply mean that I wouldn't equate man to the fullness of GOD, but do equate the Spirit of GOD with the fullness of GOD as far as can be comprehended by man. There is distinction made through the Bible and other sacred texts, I agree. When it comes to the Spirit of the Christ of GOD which filled the vessel that was Jesus of Nazareth, I believe that spirit to be the Spirit of GOD, and that He was wholly emptied of self and overfilled with the Holy Spirit.

If the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of GOD, and the vessel was wrent in twain, releasing, or giving up the ghost, then what remained was the Spirit of GOD. the Spirit returned home to Its source, that source being GOD. That Spirit returning there to, allows for my conclusion that there is no division or separation or distinguishment of Spirit with GOD. There is no plurality or mediator in Spirit. There is GOD alone.

I am not a polytheist and know you aren't either.

I would like to study the written word with you that we might grow in knowledge together.

If I start a thread about the topics we are discussing here(the observable nature and characteristics of GOD and Christ, and the division there of), would you participate?

peace friend, I look forward to your response.

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[Saxon Hammer]

All humans and animals have a spirit, their own spirit given to them at conception.
The scriptures say it is God's breath that gives us our spirit.

That is not the Holy Spirit.
People who believe and obey the Son receive the Holy Spirit to live inside them with their own spirit.

You would not know that about the Holy Spirit if you did not have the Holy Bible.

Once upon a time the 'Bible' did NOT EXIST - So how did the 'Bible' get written if it was REQUIRED before the knowledge of the 'One True God' could existed?

ANSWER a question for a change

 

[marhig]

I simply mean that I wouldn't equate man to the fullness of GOD, but do equate the Spirit of GOD with the fullness of GOD as far as can be comprehended by man. There is distinction made through the Bible and other sacred texts, I agree. When it comes to the Spirit of the Christ of GOD which filled the vessel that was Jesus of Nazareth, I believe that spirit to be the Spirit of GOD, and that He was wholly emptied of self and overfilled with the Holy Spirit.

If the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of GOD, and the vessel was wrent in twain, releasing, or giving up the ghost, then what remained was the Spirit of GOD. the Spirit returned home to Its source, that source being GOD. That Spirit returning there to, allows for my conclusion that there is no division or separation or distinguishment of Spirit with GOD. There is no plurality or mediator in Spirit. There is GOD alone.

I am not a polytheist and know you aren't either.

I would like to study the written word with you that we might grow in knowledge together.

If I start a thread about the topics we are discussing here(the observable nature and characteristics of GOD and Christ, and the division there of), would you participate?

peace friend, I look forward to your response.

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I believe very similarly to you but a bit differently also, that thread would be so interesting, I'm just on my way out. But if you are going to start it then I'll participate later if that's ok.

 

[God's Truth]

Once upon a time the 'Bible' did NOT EXIST - So how did the 'Bible' get written if it was REQUIRED before the knowledge of the 'One True God' could existed?

ANSWER a question for a change

I always answer questions.

How about you respond to what I said?

You said all have the Spirit of God in them, even animals. I can prove with scripture that God's breath gives us our spirit and we receive His Spirit when we are saved.

I also spoke of how you would not know about God and Jesus if you did not have the Holy Bible.

Why don't you speak about that?

 

[keypurr]

If what you say is true, then why does Jesus, the Son, say that His Father knows something that He, the Son, does not? How is it possible that one person can simultaneously know something and not know something?

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. - Mark 13:32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark13:32&version=NKJV

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. - Matthew 24:36 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew24:36&version=NKJV

If what you say is true, then God contradicted himself, and we know that God cannot contradict himself. So...

Your position has been refuted. Give it up.

Your only refuting your Trinity friend.
You refuse to listen to the words of your savour.
There is only one true God, why do you close your eyes to it?


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[keypurr]

Keypurr, you said there is One God, and One Lord, and that these are separate people. One the creation of the other. In that case, how do you explain passages like these (I just picked a couple at random, there are many):

Revelation 19:6 KJV
(6) And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Revelation 21:22 KJV
(22) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Is God Lord, or is Jesus Christ Lord? How do you choose which passages to use as the rule and which ones to ignore?

Galatians 6:18 KJV
(18) Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. To the Galatians written from Rome.

Ephesians 1:2 KJV
(2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

....

You were pretty emphastic there is ONE Lord. You even used all CAPS to show you were shouting.

Ephesians 4:5-6 KJV
(5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

If there is only One Lord, and Jesus is not our God, then it seems that the apostles were a bit loose or blasphemous calling Jesus their Lord and then later God their Lord.

Lord = overseer, boss, leader, ect.

LORD = God, the Father. Most high.

Jesus, flesh Son of the only true God.

Logos = the spirit Son of the Father, used by the Father to create all things in heaven and earth. The first of all creatures, creation. Given the power of his creator.

We have the same God that Jesus Christ has, his Father. The one he taught us to pray to. The God that is greater than all, the God who sent his son to take the form of man and die for us.

Greek to English translations have done a great job of causing confusion of the truth.




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[popsthebuilder]

I always answer questions.

How about you respond to what I said?

You said all have the Spirit of God in them, even animals. I can prove with scripture that God's breath gives us our spirit and we receive His Spirit when we are saved.

I also spoke of how you would not know about God and Jesus if you did not have the Holy Bible.

Why don't you speak about that?

GT.... if I may humbly state to your reception that as you know, believing comes by hearing.... That is to say, not by reading only dear friend.... Please, please contemplate this and it's meaning and know that I neither look to refute you or scripture in saying such.


As always and with sincerity you know is real;
peace


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[God's Truth]

GT.... if I may humbly state to your reception that as you know, believing comes by hearing.... That is to say, not by reading only dear friend.... Please, please contemplate this and it's meaning and know that I neither look to refute you or scripture in saying such.


As always and with sincerity you know is real;
peace


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Are you saying you would like the scriptures that say what I said?

If you are merely trying to judge me, I would suggest you not, for I couldn't care any less about your false judgments of me.

Try to control yourself. This thread is not for you to give your opinions about me.

I am debating a person who puts down the Holy Bible, and who has said things against Jesus. He also said some things about our spirits and the Spirit of God that I think he should know.

 

[JudgeDonagh]

The Trinity is rather loosely 'Biblical'
Jesus gave His disciples authority to preach, and confirm believers in His Name, which does not imply an EQUAL relationship between Jesus and God! Jesus Himself on many occaisions pointed out that the 'Son' is not the equal of the 'Father'!! While also pointing out that the 'Father' speaks THROUGH the 'Son', and therefore He (Jesus) and the 'Father' are One!
Again this does not imply a Trinity!, in that on those occaisions that God spoke THROUGH Jesus, Jesus was as a conduit, a Mirror, perfectly reflecting God's Will, and Word.


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[Saxon Hammer]

I always answer questions.

How about you respond to what I said?

You said all have the Spirit of God in them, even animals. I can prove with scripture that God's breath gives us our spirit and we receive His Spirit when we are saved.

I also spoke of how you would not know about God and Jesus if you did not have the Holy Bible.

Why don't you speak about that?

You often answer questions in this manner. This is not an answer this is an example of you not understanding the basis of my discussion with you.

Your 'scripture' from your 'book' could not have been written without the 'book' in the fist place.
Where did your egg come from, you said that the 'book' was necessary for redemption.

PROVE IT without your book or quotes from your book. Prove it as a person, write it in your words NOT in the words of long dead people.

If the only tool you have is a hammer. All the problems look like nails.

 

[God's Truth]

You often answer questions in this manner. This is not an answer this is an example of you not understanding the basis of my discussion with you.

Your 'scripture' from your 'book' could not have been written without the 'book' in the fist place.

What?
Notice that I have asked you what before and you do not try to explain further.

Where did your egg come from, you said that the 'book' was necessary for redemption.

Where did my egg come from? The Bible is necessary for redemption.

PROVE IT without your book or quotes from your book. Prove it as a person, write it in your words NOT in the words of long dead people.

Why would I try to prove something against what I said?

If the only tool you have is a hammer. All the problems look like nails.

We don't have to worry about not having a hammer, we have hammers and we have the written Word of God.

Why are you trying to survive with nothing when we have something?

 

[JudgeDonagh]

As for the Holy Spirit, that manifestation of God's Love and Grace, is not 'independent' of God! But is rather that which flows from God to first, His Chosen Messenger, (for Moses, symbolised by the Burning Bush, for Jesus, by a Dove, for Muhammad, the Angel Gabriel) second, for the Chosen Disciples, a burning tongue of flame, (taken from the biblical description of Pentecost) thirdly that image, or totem, that comes to mind for the believer, when filled by the Holy Spirit, that state of Grace conferred upon them by the Will of God, the Ever Forgiving, the Most Merciful, the Compassionate!
The existence of the Holy Spirit, that Grace emanating from God, does not imply a Trinity


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[Saxon Hammer]

What?
Notice that I have asked you what before and you do not try to explain further.


Where did my egg come from? The Bible is necessary for redemption.


Why would I try to prove something against what I said?


We don't have to worry about not having a hammer, we have hammers and we have the written Word of God.

Why are you trying to survive with nothing when we have something?

Because hollow faith is as bad as no faith.

Please go back and read the previous posts that we have created inside this thread. I did answer your question originally.

Peace to you - I simply am unable to describe myself any further your lack of comprehension of my words and continued reliance on the very thing I am talking about means you and I can go no further together.

This is the ministry of God, all around and within us.
From God we come, to God we go, in this life we witness, this, God's creation.

To be 'saved' is to fully realise the words above - no more and no less.
Being 'saved' is no guarantee of any future promise.

God is God - nothing more and nothing less. No 'him' 'she' 'it' 'lord' 'king' or any other stupid word that is not the word God.

 

[God's Truth]

Because hollow faith is as bad as no faith.

Please go back and read the previous posts that we have created inside this thread. I did answer your question originally.

Peace to you - I simply am unable to describe myself any further your lack of comprehension of my words and continued reliance on the very thing I am talking about means you and I can go no further together.

This is the ministry of God, all around and within us.
From God we come, to God we go, in this life we witness, this, God's creation.

To be 'saved' is to fully realise the words above - no more and no less.
Being 'saved' is no guarantee of any future promise.

God is God - nothing more and nothing less. No 'him' 'she' 'it' 'lord' 'king' or any other stupid word that is not the word God.

I read what you have been saying to me.

I am not going back.

I ask questions to you and you do not answer but give even more confusing commentaries.

 

[God's Truth]

As for the Holy Spirit, that manifestation of God's Love and Grace, is not 'independent' of God! But is rather that which flows from God to first, His Chosen Messenger, (for Moses, symbolised by the Burning Bush, for Jesus, by a Dove, for Muhammad, the Angel Gabriel) second, for the Chosen Disciples, a burning tongue of flame, (taken from the biblical description of Pentecost) thirdly that image, or totem, that comes to mind for the believer, when filled by the Holy Spirit, that state of Grace conferred upon them by the Will of God, the Ever Forgiving, the Most Merciful, the Compassionate!
The existence of the Holy Spirit, that Grace emanating from God, does not imply a Trinity


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The written Word of God says no other gospel, even from an angel.

Here is one scripture that should stop a person from continuing to contemplate believing the Mormon religion. In addition, this one scripture should stop someone from thinking of joining the Islamic/Muslim religion.

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Joseph Smith says the angel Moroni gave him the other testament of Jesus Christ. Do not let anyone, nor the Mormon missionaries, try to explain away what Galatians 1:8 says! The Islamic religion claims that an angel appeared to their prophet and gave him the Qur'an.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Are you saying you would like the scriptures that say what I said?

If you are merely trying to judge me, I would suggest you not, for I couldn't care any less about your false judgments of me.

Try to control yourself. This thread is not for you to give your opinions about me.

I am debating a person who puts down the Holy Bible, and who has said things against Jesus. He also said some things about our spirits and the Spirit of God that I think he should know.

Romans: 10. 12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.



(all I am trying to say is that faith comes from hearing, and that limiting hearing to reading the written word is not correct. I am not defending anyone. It was only a response to your words. It was not and is not meant as an attack or defence towards any person. It is defence of the fact that hearing of Jesus and GOD is enough to hope in them and seek help, and that this is indeed effectual to being given faith in GOD, freely and mercifully, and wholly miraculously)

peace friend



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