The Trinity

[keypurr]

My proof is the Bible itself.
It is clear that you reject the Bible when it does not agree with the doctrines of men that you were taught.

Spare me the hogwash.

John 1:14 English Standard Version (ESV)

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

What was the WORD before it became flesh?

No hogwash, just scripture and common sense, answer the question?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Do you want to be proved false right now. From CARM.org

Plurality of God in the Old Testament

Let's take a look at the actual verses and see if CARM is making things up again.

Gen. 1:26, "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'"
Angels do not create.
We are not made in the image of angels.
There is no place in the OT where a leader refers to himself with the term "us."
Gen. 3:22, "Then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever--'"
Gen. 11:7, "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech."
. . .
Isaiah 6:8, "Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!'"

I already mentioned those four verses are the only ones that can be used for a Trinitarian view.

Amos 4:10-11, “I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord [YHWH]. 11 “I overthrew you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord."

Verse 10 is clearly from a Unitarian viewpoint.
Verse 11 has the Lord (YHVH) referring to something God did, so you can add it to the list.

Gen. 19:24, "Then the Lord [YHWH] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord [YHWH] out of heaven."

That is clearly a verse from a Unitarian viewpoint.

Psalm 45:6-7, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows."
This is quoted in Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He [God] says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."

That is clearly a verse from a Unitarian viewpoint speaking about God and His Son, who God anointed above the Son's fellows.
Since God did not anoint the Son above Himself, the Son's fellows are not God, so the Son would be lower than God.

Isaiah 48:16, "Come near to Me [God], listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, from the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

Another verse written from a Unitarian viewpoint. Isaiah is clearly saying that God sent him.

And how many other verses allude to the Triunity of God?

None?

You found 167 words out of the 622,771 words in the Old Testament.
It appears that my initial estimate was a little off.

Here is my new estimate:
The NASB Bible contains 807,361 words.
Of those, about 806,500 words are clearly Unitarian.

All the words in the scriptures that are used to support a Trinitarian view fall into the remaining 861 or so words.

There, you now have 500 more words to fill with verses that can be used to support a Trinitarian view.

That still leaves the overwhelming majority of the Bible as Unitarian.

So, instead of my initial estimate that 99.95528642% of the Bible is completely Unitarian, the new estimate is that 99.89335626% of the Bible is completely Unitarian.

I am sure that you are much happier to know that a tenth of one percent of the words in the Bible can be used to support a Trinitarian view instead of only four one hundredths of a percent.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You can see the graphic I've been posting. Good, I was wondering. Right click on it and save it to your desktop, then open it with Paint. You can then read it and reply to it at the same time. And when you do, please answer this question: which part of that graphic is the doctrines of men?

I found the same questions in another post you had written and answered them here.

It appears that the entire graphic is the doctrines of men, since each question is refuted by the scriptures.

 

[keypurr]

The Spirit spoke to and through men from day one. Christ was sent to proclaim God's kingdom.

And so it is.

Do not confuse the Holy Spirit with the spirit son, that are not the same.

 

[glorydaz]

Denying the only Lord God?
God is my Lord, and I do not deny that.

Denying our Lord Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ is also my Lord, and I do not deny that, either.

God is the Lord of my Lord Jesus Christ, as it is written:

1 Corinthians 11:3 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.​

Do you believe that the head of Christ is God?
Or are you still denying that the head of Christ is God?

Paul wasn't talking about Lordship there.

1 Cor. 3:7
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.​

Rather he was speaking of order.....the woman coming out from the man, as Christ "came out from God".

Gen. 2:2-3 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. John 16:27KJV For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.​

In the beginning the Word was with God and was God. John 1:1-3
He came out from God, became flesh and dwelt among us. The head of Christ is God.


Adam was created by the Lord Jesus Christ (by Him were all things created... Col. 1:15-16KJV The head of Adam is Christ (who created all things),

The woman came out of man. The head of woman is man.

 

[glorydaz]

What was the WORD before it became flesh?

No hogwash, just scripture and common sense, answer the question?

You've been shown this many times. The Word was God from the beginning. John 1:1KJV

That you keep calling our Lord and Saviour an "IT" is what proves you have no Saviour as yet.

That blood HE is dripping with was shed for you and you call HIM an IT? :nono:

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.​

 

[musterion]

I found the same questions in another post you had written and answered them here.

Peurile. The context of the graphic is God, Christ and the Spirit. You pretended to misunderstand that so you could avoid refuting it point be point, as an honest person would do.

Someone else please take a look at the link he just posted and tell me if I'm wrong.

 

[Bright Raven]

What was the WORD before it became flesh?

No hogwash, just scripture and common sense, answer the question?

Jesus and not believing so makes you a heretic, non-believer.

 

[Bright Raven]

Let's take a look at the actual verses and see if CARM is making things up again.


I already mentioned those four verses are the only ones that can be used for a Trinitarian view.


Verse 10 is clearly from a Unitarian viewpoint.
Verse 11 has the Lord (YHVH) referring to something God did, so you can add it to the list.


That is clearly a verse from a Unitarian viewpoint.

That is clearly a verse from a Unitarian viewpoint speaking about God and His Son, who God anointed above the Son's fellows.
Since God did not anoint the Son above Himself, the Son's fellows are not God, so the Son would be lower than God.


Another verse written from a Unitarian viewpoint. Isaiah is clearly saying that God sent him.


None?

You found 167 words out of the 622,771 words in the Old Testament.
It appears that my initial estimate was a little off.

Here is my new estimate:
The NASB Bible contains 807,361 words.
Of those, about 806,500 words are clearly Unitarian.

All the words in the scriptures that are used to support a Trinitarian view fall into the remaining 861 or so words.

There, you now have 500 more words to fill with verses that can be used to support a Trinitarian view.

That still leaves the overwhelming majority of the Bible as Unitarian.

So, instead of my initial estimate that 99.95528642% of the Bible is completely Unitarian, the new estimate is that 99.89335626% of the Bible is completely Unitarian.

I am sure that you are much happier to know that a tenth of one percent of the words in the Bible can be used to support a Trinitarian view instead of only four one hundredths of a percent.

:blabla:

 

[genuineoriginal]

Peurile. The context of the graphic is God, Christ and the Spirit. You pretended to misunderstand that so you could avoid refuting it point be point, as an honest person would do.

Someone else please take a look at the link he just posted and tell me if I'm wrong.

Both Trinitarians and Unitarians hate these verses:

Exodus 15:11 11 Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?​

Exodus 18:11 11 Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.​

Exodus 23:32-33 32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.​

Deuteronomy 6:14 14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;​

This last one puts the rest into perspective, as far as I can tell.

Deuteronomy 10:17 17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:​

 

[Lazy afternoon]

No sir, and it's sad so many are letting themselves be taken to the spiritual cleaners.:devil:

There are verses in the New Testament which might appear to support the traditional doctrine of the trinity, but good research in the Scriptures and the history of the doctrine has brought me and many others to the conviction that "the case for the trinity rests on questionable treatment of the biblical documents" (stated by Anthony Buzzard & Charles Hunting in their interesting book, The Doctrine of the Trinity, Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound).

The case for the trinity "ignores the massive evidence for unitary monotheism--the belief in one God as a single person, the Father of Jesus Christ--and relies heavily on inference from a few select verses." It isolates certain texts and forgets that their context is the whole of Scripture.

Doctrines must be built upon plain, straightforward texts. After much research by a number of Biblical experts, many of them now admit that the trinity doctrine cannot be documented in the Bible, and is truly a distortion of Bible teachings. It is my desire, and that of other non-trinitarians, that people will examine the evidence that counters the trinity doctrine with an open mind.

Church historians have recorded that believers in God as a single person were "at the beginning of the third century still the large majority." (Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, Vol.23, p.963)

Present-day fundamental Christianity claims to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and the authority of Christ, and yet they have never come to believe in a statement made by Christ himself that summed up his feeling & knowledge of his Father: "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent." (John 17:3) Are they totally insensitive to the warning issued by Jesus when he said, "In vain they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commands of men"? (Matthew 15:9) Have they fallen under the spell of theological leaders, mainly from the 2nd to the 5th century, when they allowed their Greek philosophy backgrounds to corrupt the Hebrew thought which formed the basis of the young Christian church?

Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament offer evidence for the doctrine of the trinity. A person can establish this fact by a careful, open-minded examination of the Biblical writings. There is no passage of Scripture that asserts that God is three, no authentic verse which claims that the one God is three persons, three spirits, three divine infinite minds, or three anything. Any claim that there are three who make up the Deity must be based on inference, rather than plain statements. The trinitarian concept relies on often tortured logic which lacks solid support in the earliest Christian writings.

:think:

Yes sir.

LA

 

[Bright Raven]

Yes sir.

LA

Cool, you're a Jehovah"s Witness

 

[musterion]

Figgers, don't it.

 

[KingdomRose]

WRONG!! He is not talking about the Father. He is talking about Jesus. :duh:

You are right....it is talking about Jesus. He was given the power and authority to create by the Father, YHWH.

I Corinthians 8:5,6 shows that everything came FROM the Father, THROUGH the Son. The Father is God, and He is the Source of all things.

 

[KingdomRose]

Mat 28:19 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
​

This one verse, alone, proves the three in one doctrine.

ONE name -- THREE persons.

No it doesn't. It doesn't say that they are all God, and it doesn't say that they are even all equal. Two of these are persons who have individual names: the Father is Jehovah and the Son is Jesus. The Holy Spirit doesn't have a name and there is nothing there to indicate that it is a person.

 

[KingdomRose]

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Jehovah is merely saying that He is the only SOURCE of power. He has it all, and He will give it to whom He wishes.

 

[journey]

I think I clearly stated what I see as truth. I know most do not discard the fables they have been taught to go deep enough to find truth. The truth is right if front of your nose BR. Jesus was born as a man to be the Saviour of mankind. But that is not what makes him God or Godlike. It was the SPIRIT in him that was a created form of God, that spoke through Jesus and brought light into this world. Why do you turn away from the words of your Lord when he says that his Father is the only true God? Who do you wish to please, God or man?

Your confusion is complete. Many have shared the TRUTH with you, but you have rejected it. You don't have ears to hear the TRUTH, and your heart is hardened to the TRUTH. The sad thing is your attempts to sell your baloney to others.

 

[KingdomRose]

Yahwah has many name titles.

No He doesn't. As the KJV at Psalm 83:18 says, "JEHOVAH is the Most High." That is the name of God. Nothing else.

 

[Bright Raven]

No it doesn't. It doesn't say that they are all God, and it doesn't say that they are even all equal. Two of these are persons who have individual names: the Father is Jehovah and the Son is Jesus. The Holy Spirit doesn't have a name and there is nothing there to indicate that it is a person.

Philippians 2:5-6 shows the equality of Jesus with God.


Philippians 2:5-6 English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I gave the reference.
It is the Bible as a whole.

You can read it yourself, like I did, and come up with your own estimate, like I did.

Or, you can take all the verses that everyone has used to try to prove that the Trinity is in the Bible and add up the words yourself.
Every word that is not in those verses speak of God from a Unitarian view.

To start you off, here is a list of all the verses in the Old Testament that can be used for a Trinitarian view:
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 3:22
Genesis 11:7
Isaiah 6:8

All the rest of the verses in the Old Testament teach a Unitarian view.

Yes.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

"Our" does not mean three, either.

and the scene in Heaven mentions millions of angels all in the image of God.

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

next-

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

ditto.

next-

Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

as also--

Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

next--

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Context--

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isa 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

It was Isaiah.

LA