The Trinity

[Rosenritter]

Cannot see any Trinity spelled out in that passage. I do see a two-fold repetition of titles of the same God. Can you please highlight the word "Trinity" in that passage for me please, or demonstrate how the passage cannot conform with other existing models of God, including "Unitarian" and "Jesus is the One God" theology?

If this is clearly spelled out, please provide the spelling.

You are HILARIOUS.

Here is one simple example that shows that your "absolute singularity" doctrine is nonsense (though I'm sure you will not understand it).

Isa 44:6 (KJV)​

(44:6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God. ​

Can you also spell out for me the three Trinity persons is named as which in that passage? Is the LORD the King of Israel the second person of the Trinity, or is the redeemer the LORD of hosts the second person? If so, where are the other two? Can you show me that this is clearly spelled out so that there is no confusion of the persons?

 

[Right Divider]

As popsthebuilder said this verse does not prove the trinity. The Trinity is that God=Father/Son/HS that all persons make the one God and yet all three persons separate from each other, co-equal and co-eternal.

Matthew 28:19 simply states to baptise in the name (singular) of the father, Son and Holy Spirit. How does that show that God is one who is three separate persons with them being co-equal and co-eternal? It doesn't.

Moreover the word for name in Greek in Matt 28:19 is "onoma" which doesn't have to refer to a literal name. Onoma can mean, in a sense, authority. For example in English we have the phrase, "stop in the name of the law", now tell me, what is the laws name? The law doesn't have a name! But we still understand that phrase don't we now, we understand the "name" to mean stop in the authority of the law. The greek term onoma can mean the same thing, to do an action in the authority of something.

Therefore Matt 28:19 doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the trinity at all, since the phrase, baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy spirit simply means to baptise in the authority the subject(s). The translation name isn't a literal name anymore that the law in the phrase "stop in the name of the law" has a literal name.

Since Matt 28:19 doesn't elaborate what that name is then it is an assumption to think that name is Jehovah, if that's what you think. One would need to prove, with reference, that each person of the trinity firstly posses the name Jehovah for any claim that the name in Matt 28:19 is in regards to the name Jehovah. Which means you need to show the Father has the name Jehovah, Jesus has the name Jehovah and the Holy spirit has the name Jehovah.

The NAME refers to their AUTHORITY. It's very easy to see to anyone that isn't looking to twist the plain meaning.

Since the three (Father AND son AND Holy Ghost) all have the SAME AUTHORITY it is easy to understand that they are all the ONE GOD.

 

[God's Truth]

Now that's irony.

Why is it irony?

We are in a debate group.

If everyone just agreed to disagree, there is no debate then.

 

[NWL]

You are HILARIOUS.

Here is one simple example that shows that your "absolute singularity" doctrine is nonsense (though I'm sure you will not understand it).

Isa 44:6 (KJV)​

(44:6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God. ​

You confused the pronoun "his" in the verse you cited. The pronoun "his" refers to Israel and not YHWH. The usage of the second YHWH in the verse is saying that YHWH is Israels redeemer, the verse isn't saying that there are two YHWH, with the second YWHW being the redeemer of the first one. Thus your argument fails.

This fact has been noted by many scholars and is displayed in many notable and modern translations.

 

[God's Truth]

You are HILARIOUS.

Here is one simple example that shows that your "absolute singularity" doctrine is nonsense (though I'm sure you will not understand it).

Isa 44:6 (KJV)​

(44:6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God. ​

There is only ONE GOD and HE IS the Father.

You picked a scripture that rebukes what you preach.

 

[NWL]

The NAME refers to their AUTHORITY. It's very easy to see to anyone that isn't looking to twist the plain meaning.

Yes but you're still reading it with a trinitrian mindset, replace the word "name" in Matt 28:19 for "authority" and the trinitrian argument fails even more.

(Matthew 28:19) "..Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the authority of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.."

It is only by assuming the name refers to an actual name does the trinitarian argument ever arise. When you view the Greek word onoma/ to mean name in the sense of authority the trinitarian argument breaks down.

Since the three (Father AND son AND Holy Ghost) all have the SAME AUTHORITY it is easy to understand that they are all the ONE GOD.

This reasoning is pure assumption. The Father is the one who sends both the Holy Spirit and the Son. The Son does all things for the Father. Thus you are both correct and incorrect. They do all act under the same authority, that being the authority of the Father.

Notice the verse just prior to Matthew 28:19, it reads "Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth". The Father gave Jesus the authority, we worship the Father through Jesus, the Father positioned Jesus as our King doing so by means of his Holy Spirit. So we get baptised under the authority of all three subjects. Ultimately that authority comes from the Father as seen by Matt 28:18.

 

[God's Truth]

Your confused, the pronoun "his" in the verse you cited refers to Israel and not YHWH. The usage of the second YHWH in the verse is saying that YHWH is Israels redeemer, the verse isn't saying that there are two YHWH, with the second YWHW being the redeemer of the first one. Thus your argument fails.

There is only one Redeemer, and it is God the Father.

The Bible says that Jesus is the Redeemer.

That makes Jesus God the Father come in the flesh as a Man.

 

[keypurr]

My thoughts, the Trinity is the "Mark of the Beast"


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[Right Divider]

My thoughts, the Trinity is the "Mark of the Beast"

That's really dumb.

 

[Lon]

No JW tries to work there way to heaven, we all understand that the gift of life is a free gift (Romans 6:23). What you do find however is that throughout the bible it teaches that we must obey God in order to receive his blessings. It makes no sense to be a Christian, namely a follower of christ, and not actually follow him and somehow still be a follower of Christ. TO be a follower of christ we must imitate and listen to the things he taught and instructed. This theme of obedience is found throughout the bible and is an undeniable fact.

(Hebrews 5:9) "..And after he [Jesus] had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.."

(Matthew 28:19, 20) "..Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.."

(Luke 6:46) “..Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?.."

(Matthew 7:21) “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

Obedience it required for salvation, fact! Just like a free prize draw has terms and conditions Gods free gift has terms and conditions. A free prize draw is still a free gift regardless of the terms and conditions, likewise Gods free gift is still a free gift despite of the terms and conditions.

One of my best friends was a JW. My wife and I sat at dinner at a JW convention. One tried to drive over my friend, who was putting Christian flyers in the JW windowshields. One of the main speakers, while my wife and I were having dinner, made a pass at another's man's wife. Made me sick. Every single JW around that table (about 30) laughed their heads off at the inappropriate proposition that she leave her husband and get together with him. :vomit:

Digging dirt? :nono: I'm trying to make a point: You CANNOT earn salvation. No unregenerate will ever earn heaven, no matter how hard he/she tries. Only one born of God, a regenerate new creation, will ever see the Kingdom of God and only that person can obey, because he/she is a new creation, recreated to desire to do so. He/she will please God new-naturally by the Spirit placed within him/her.

These examples of JW's I've met, are examples of men and women without the Spirit. There are unregenerate in ever church but a man/woman possessed by God, will not need a whip. They will enjoin your encouragement and reciprocate it. When one is doing something wonderful of God, the other will quickly want to emulate or enjoin, if time allows, they will do so.

 

[Lon]

This seems to go without saying. But some prefer an easier doctrine of 'total depravity', then you can invent a pre-packaged, 'pre-ordained' theology that 'God' must do everything, so you have no say in the matter, whether you are saved or lost, and this all by the pre-ordained will or 'decree' of God. You just kick back and coast...if you're among the saved, God will save you, if your not he chooses to 'pass over' you and leave you for dead (see 'Preterition') Its all pre-ordained....why make any effort at anything? Just hope your among the 'chosen'. In that purview, the TULIP in Calvinism prevails, so its all according to the 'belief-system', a view in multiple 'grid-lock'. There is no freedom of choice in the full or ultimate sense in this program.

1) Not the right thread
2) You are caricaturing it and have a 4th grade apprehension of what you are talking about, a gloss-over at best.
3) Take it to another thread, doesn't belong here.

 

[NWL]

Agree except I see the man Jesus as not existing until he was born to Mary. However the spirit son, express image, was his first creation. And had the fullness of his creator. God created a form of God for all things were created through the son.

I give you four out of five stars.


Sent from my iPad using TOL

I agree with what you say. I use the name Jesus when referring to his life prior to coming to earth, when on earth and also after his ascension back to heaven, I only do so so as to not be overly dogmatic and for ease of any discussion I have with people who would find it difficult to grasp such a truth.

Can I get five stars now?

 

[God's Truth]

I have personally seen that the side effects of flawed Trinity doctrine having the result of creating Unitarians who deny Jesus being God at all.

I have also seen someone turn from Unitarian to acknowledging and adopting "Jesus is the LORD God" when they were no longer required to accept a Trinity doctrine for which they could see obvious flaws and/or contradictions.

Right, the trinity doctrine is not God, it is a teaching from mere men who made a mistake.

 

[Lon]

None should deny the elevation of the Son of GOD. That isn't what Unitarians or monotheists who believe immune Christ of GOD do. I can't rightly speak for all though.

Look at Keypurr's sig, by example and expression I see on TOL and other places: "I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ."
No mention of "I love my Lord Jesus Christ" and so I don't see, in practice, what you are asserting to be true.

Also, Modalists are different than Unitarians. You put them in a room together and they will think the other is reading a different bible and completely foreign to them, simply because they see the exact opposite scriptures. Modalists see the Lord Jesus Christ AS God, but, according to them, He is also the Father as well. They would then, elevate the Lord Jesus Christ as God, and no other.

 

[God's Truth]

Look at Keypurr's sig, by example and expression I see on TOL and other places: "I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ."
No mention of "I love my Lord Jesus Christ" and so I don't see, in practice, what you are asserting to be true.

Also, Modalists are different than Unitarians. You put them in a room together and they will think the other is reading a different bible and completely foreign to them, simply because they see the exact opposite scriptures. Modalists see the Lord Jesus Christ AS God, but, according to them, He is also the Father as well. They would then, elevate the Lord Jesus Christ as God, and no other.

You are so mixed up.

 

[Lon]

Clearly spelled out?

Throughout scripture?

Can you point me to the book and chapter where it is spelled out, "This is the Trinity" and "You must believe the Trinity" or "Hear O Israel, the LORD your God is a Trinity?" Since you say it is throughout scripture, can you please give me five such instances?

1 John 5:7 If it is to be either believed or scrutinized....

 

[NWL]

One of my best friends was a JW. My wife and I sat at dinner at a JW convention. One tried to drive over my friend, who was putting Christian flyers in the JW windowshields. One of the main speakers, while my wife and I were having dinner, made a pass at another's man's wife. Made me sick. Every single JW around that table (about 30) laughed their heads off at the inappropriate proposition that she leave her husband and get together with him. :vomit:

Digging dirt? :nono: I'm trying to make a point: You CANNOT earn salvation. No unregenerate will ever earn heaven, no matter how hard he/she tries. Only one born of God, a regenerate new creation, will ever see the Kingdom of God and only that person can obey, because he/she is a new creation, recreated to desire to do so. He/she will please God new-naturally by the Spirit placed within him/her.

These examples of JW's I've met, are examples of men and women without the Spirit. There are unregenerate in ever church but a man/woman possessed by God, will not need a whip. They will enjoin your encouragement and reciprocate it. When one is doing something wonderful of God, the other will quickly want to emulate or enjoin, if time allows, they will do so.

I don't doubt your experience with the JW's since in all circles in life there is always bad, even among Christians and followers of Christ. We must remember however, that just because there are always rotten apples in a bunch of apples it doesn't mean that all the apples are bad. Among Jesus closest companions he had Judas Iscariot, a thief and a betrayer, does such a wicked man also discredit his companions?

We cannot earn salvation. As I mentioned earlier worldly organisation offer many free prize draws, it costs absolutely nothing to enter these prize draws and when/if you receive the gift, no amount of work provided that gift for you, since to enter the prize draw was free. However, prize draws always have T&C, this doesn't negate the fact that the prize draw along with the gift is free does it now.

I showed you the scriptures, you made no mention of them, they clearly show that obedience to Gods T&C's are needed in order to receive the free gift, JUST like a modern day free prize draw.

Since you clearly deny scripture can you answer simple some simple questions.

According to Hebrews 5:9 is Jesus responsible for the handing out the free gift of eternal life only to people who obey him?

(Hebrews 5:9) "..And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.."

Regarding the commission to preach(Matt 28:19 and obedience coming into play) we have Romans 10:10 which reads "For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation". Do we need to publicly declare Jesus for salvation according to Romans 10:10?

According to Matt 7:21 will those who DO NOT do the will of God enter in the Kingdom? “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. (Matthew 7:21)

Another scripture to study Lon.

(Hebrews 10:36) "...For you need endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the fulfillment of the promise..."

 

[God's Truth]

1 John 5:7 If it is to be either believed or scrutinized....

The three are One.

One means 'the same'.

 

[NWL]

There is only one Redeemer, and it is God the Father.

The Bible says that Jesus is the Redeemer.

That makes Jesus God the Father come in the flesh as a Man.

Scripture makes no mention that there is only one redeemer. Your reasoning skills, in my opinion, are highly flawed. Just because one person if called something, and then someone else seems to be called the same thing it does not mean that they are the same person.

 

[God's Truth]

Scripture makes no mention that there is only one redeemer. Your reasoning skills, in my opinion, are highly flawed. Just because one person if called something, and then someone else seems to be called the same thing it does not mean that they are the same person.

Your the one with the flawed reasoning skills.

GOD SAYS He is one.
God says He is the Redeemer.

So when Jesus comes, and he is called the Redeemer, you know that is might God, and the everlasting Father.