The last three sections of post 8187
Thank you. I had felt I'd answered much of it, but since you asked so nicely as well as had that reasonable expectation:
I typically don't jump from this forum into linked websites very often because I subscribe to the notion that anyone putting forth their views should be able to clearly and concisely defend them.
I did, however, read through the article you linked to. While there are some inconsistencies and easily refuted points, if the evidence listed was exhaustive, I'd concede that you are probably right.
However, The people reading things "into" the text are those wanting to prove a trinity in the Old Testament. For centuries, those strictly reading things "out" of the text have come to the understanding the God is One.
On this, I think the answer still has to be: We listen to Jewish Christians first. They do understand Hebrews, as well as have been to synagogue and a good number are members of Jewish families and so have these conversations with their loved ones. They'd be well aware of Jewish objections such as ones you've given so far.
My question earlier still stands-it is indisputable that the non-backslidden Jews of Isaiah's time believed that God was one person. If that was a misunderstanding, and God knew that they fiercely believed this misunderstanding, why would he choose to purposely deepen their deception? Dozens of times he repeats Himself... "there is no one before Me, after Me, with Me, beside Me, or even like Me. I won't share My glory with anyone else".
Thus, wouldn't it seem obvious, that the Son is eternal as well? On top of that, I don't want to undo a modal view, as I am modal as part of my -une understanding. Anything that makes you modal, is why I am tri- -une. Rather, I am seeing something in scripture that I am trying to embrace. I'll discuss that in a moment...
Besides, the writer of Hebrews says that the one speaking here in Isaiah later had a son, so unequivocally this is the Father speaking.
Even Jews understand theophanies as God. That is, they see that somehow the being they are seeing is God, yet they know no one has or had ever seen the Father. How do they reconcile that God is able to show himself? By understanding there is a form of God that is somehow part of God, yet apart from Him since they cannot see Him and live. Perhaps this would be a very good point to use to evangelize one of your Jewish acquaintances. The Lord Jesus Christ was the one revealed to Israel. He is their one God, though they do not know Him as such. I would think this is part of your position.
"I see three but know there is only one."
In the most basic sense: We are seeing the Son talk with the Father and both referring to the Spirit as somehow separate from Father or Son.
John 1:1 clearly says "was God" and "was with God." How is such possible? How could any of us ever explain that? I cannot be 'with' myself. It seems only God can. I think your and Rosenritter's idea that God is omnipresent is good, but God is not only omnipresent, He is apart from His creation as well. Imho, God explaining Himself, creates a dynamic that physical beings are little equipped to fully comprehend. I 'think' what I can understand, if not by concept but by wording, is that somehow the Word is 'with' God, and at the same time "is" God.
Last point: if there is a Trinity, in Isaiah the Father is taking credit for doing creation by himself, and being God all by himself. The Son is left out. And the poor Holy Ghost is really left out-you never see him in the book of Revelations. The Father is reigning (although He is never seen, he is referenced), and you see the Lamb very visible. The Holy Ghost is not ruling, or reigning, or providing light, or anywhere near the throne.
Again, they know and knew that in some form, God was manifesting Himself to Israel. The hand that wrote on the wall, was by their understanding, the hand of God. They knew that it was not God they could see, but realized God was doing something they could see, and they called it "the Hand of God." Somehow, they too, believed and believe both. A Jew may argue, but I think he/she is not understanding Christianity at that point. We do not have three Gods. There is only One. We agree on that point. I am not as modal as a Jew, but I am not a tri-theist. Often, emphasis on the separateness of Father, Son, and Spirit, has an emphasis on Tri- I don't apologize for embracing what God discloses about Himself. I will not apologize, for instance, to a Jew, for the existence, or my embrace of the New Testament. No Jew will ever hear me sheepish or apologizing for it. It is true and it was SUPPOSED to be their truth. They reject it to their own peril. I will not allow a Jew to Judaize me. Again, I think we can appreciate one who is submerged in Hebrew scriptures, to help us understand better what we are not as submerged in, but if you wanted to, as a Christian, you could do what Jews did in reviving their language by reading and speaking it. There is no advantage of the modern Jew over us as far as scripture interpretation. Yet once again, in their history, they'd lost it. Some rabbis attempted to keep it alive, but until 1947, it would have been similar to Christians studying and reading Greek, some better than most others.
