The Trinity

The Trinity


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jamie

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GT said that, Our spirits live on in consciousness after the death of our bodies.

I wish I could believe that. But I can't.

It's not true, but it's what Satan told Eve, you will not surely die.

This is a very misleading statement because the word "surely" comes from the Hebrew word for die and the word "die" comes from the Hebrew word for die. Jesus' remission for sin was so that we only have to die once, not twice.

That second death is a killer.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
It's not true, but it's what Satan told Eve, you will not surely die.

This is a very misleading statement because the word "surely" comes from the Hebrew word for die and the word "die" comes from the Hebrew word for die. Jesus' remission for sin was so that we only have to die once, not twice.

That second death is a killer.
Amen, we agree.

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Bright Raven

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Amen, we agree.

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In What Sense Did Adam And Eve Die?
Adam and Eve lived many years after they were banned from Eden, although it may be true that, in some sense, they actually did die on the very day that they ate of the forbidden fruit.Answers in Genesis offers a plausible explanation of this apparent contradiction:

The phrase “you shall surely die” can be literally translated from the Hebrew Biblical text as “dying you shall die.” In the Hebrew phrase we find the imperfect form of the Hebrew verb (you shall die) with the infinitive absolute form of the same verb (dying). This presence of the infinitive absolute intensifies the meaning of the imperfect verb (hence the usual translation of “you shall surely die”).This grammatical construction is quite common in the Old Testament, not just with this verb but others also, and does indicate (or intensify) the certainty of the action. The scholarly reference work by Bruce K. Waltke and M. O’Conner, An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax (Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 1990), gives many Biblical examples of this, [1] and they say that “the precise nuance of intensification [of the verbal meaning] must be discovered from the broader context”.

[2] Clearly in the context of Gen. 3, Adam and Eve died spiritually instantly—they were separated from God and hid themselves. Their relationship with God was broken. But in Romans 5:12 we see in context that Paul is clearly speaking of physical death (Jesus’ physical death, verses 8-10, and other men’s physical death, in verse 14). We also find the same comparison of physical death and physical resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:20-22.So both spiritual death and physical death are the consequences of Adam’s fall.A relevant passage to this discussion is found in Numbers 26:65. There we find “they shall surely die” (literally: dying they shall die). These are the same Hebrew verbs and the same grammatical construction as in Genesis 2:17. God told the Israelites shortly after they came out of Egypt to go into the land of Canaan and take possession of it, as it had been promised to Abraham.In Numbers 26:65 God says that because the adult Jews (20 years and older) refused to trust and obey God and go into the Promise Land, they would die in the wilderness over the course of 40 years (one year for every day that the twelve spies investigated the Land—see Numbers 13:1-14:10). But those rebellious unbelieving Jews did not all die at the same moment. Their deaths were spread over that whole 40-year period.So, dying they did all die and that death occurred at various times some years after God’s pronouncement of judgment.One enquiry sent to me about Genesis 2:17 said that the verse says “in THAT day” you shall surely die. So, the enquirer said, it sure seems to say that Adam would die physically that day. But the demonstrative pronoun,“that,” is not in the Hebrew text at this point. The Hebrew has beyom (בְּיוֹם), where the Hebrew preposition b (ב, usually is translated “in”) is connected as a prefix to yom (יוֹם, which is the word for “day”). This Hebrew temporal adverb is often translated with the English prepositional phrase “in the day that.” This would be the essentially “woodenly literal” translation (although “the” and “that” are not in the Hebrew but are added to make the English sound smooth). But only sometimes (not always) does beyom refer to a literal day, in which case the context makes it clear. This same construction (beyom) appears in Genesis 2:4 and does not refer to a specific 24-hour day but to the whole creation week of six literal days. See also Numbers 7:10-84, where in verses 10 and 84 beyom refers to a period of twelve days of sacrifice.

But a different construction occurs in between those verses. There in verses 12, 18, 24, etc., which describe the sacrifices of each of those days, bayyom (בַּיּוֹם) is used, where the “a” (the vowel mark under the first Hebrew letter on the right) and the dot (dagesh) under the second letter on the right (yod) indicate the definite article “the.” (For days 11 and 12, in verses 72 and 78, we find beyom). The phrase beyom is therefore sometimes rightly translated as “when," referring to a period longer than a day, as in the NIV in both Genesis 2:4 and Genesis 2:17 (and in Numbers 7:10 and 84 and elsewhere—the NAS, HCSB and NKJV versions also translate it as “when” in these verses in Numbers).

Conclusion:
So, from all this we conclude that the construction “dying you shall die” and beyom in Genesis 2:17 do not require us to conclude that God was warning that “the very day you eat from the tree is the exact same day that you will die physically.” The Hebrew wording of Genesis 2:17 allows for a time lapse between the instantaneous spiritual death on that sad day of disobedience and the later physical death (which certainly did happen, just as God said, but for Adam it was 930 years later). As Scripture consistently teaches, both kinds of death (spiritual and physical) are the consequence of Adam’s rebellion. Therefore, Hugh Ross and other old-earth proponents are not correct when they say that spiritual death was the only consequent of Adam’s rebellion at the Fall.

References:
[1] Bruce K. Waltke and M. O’Conner, An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax, Winona Lake, Eisenbrauns, 1990, pp. 584–588.
[2] Ibid, p. 585.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
In What Sense Did Adam And Eve Die?
Adam and Eve lived many years after they were banned from Eden, although it may be true that, in some sense, they actually did die on the very day that they ate of the forbidden fruit.Answers in Genesis offers a plausible explanation of this apparent contradiction:

The phrase “you shall surely die” can be literally translated from the Hebrew Biblical text as “dying you shall die.” In the Hebrew phrase we find the imperfect form of the Hebrew verb (you shall die) with the infinitive absolute form of the same verb (dying). This presence of the infinitive absolute intensifies the meaning of the imperfect verb (hence the usual translation of “you shall surely die”).This grammatical construction is quite common in the Old Testament, not just with this verb but others also, and does indicate (or intensify) the certainty of the action. The scholarly reference work by Bruce K. Waltke and M. O’Conner, An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax (Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 1990), gives many Biblical examples of this, [1] and they say that “the precise nuance of intensification [of the verbal meaning] must be discovered from the broader context”.

[2] Clearly in the context of Gen. 3, Adam and Eve died spiritually instantly—they were separated from God and hid themselves. Their relationship with God was broken. But in Romans 5:12 we see in context that Paul is clearly speaking of physical death (Jesus’ physical death, verses 8-10, and other men’s physical death, in verse 14). We also find the same comparison of physical death and physical resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:20-22.So both spiritual death and physical death are the consequences of Adam’s fall.A relevant passage to this discussion is found in Numbers 26:65. There we find “they shall surely die” (literally: dying they shall die). These are the same Hebrew verbs and the same grammatical construction as in Genesis 2:17. God told the Israelites shortly after they came out of Egypt to go into the land of Canaan and take possession of it, as it had been promised to Abraham.In Numbers 26:65 God says that because the adult Jews (20 years and older) refused to trust and obey God and go into the Promise Land, they would die in the wilderness over the course of 40 years (one year for every day that the twelve spies investigated the Land—see Numbers 13:1-14:10). But those rebellious unbelieving Jews did not all die at the same moment. Their deaths were spread over that whole 40-year period.So, dying they did all die and that death occurred at various times some years after God’s pronouncement of judgment.One enquiry sent to me about Genesis 2:17 said that the verse says “in THAT day” you shall surely die. So, the enquirer said, it sure seems to say that Adam would die physically that day. But the demonstrative pronoun,“that,” is not in the Hebrew text at this point. The Hebrew has beyom (בְּיוֹם), where the Hebrew preposition b (ב, usually is translated “in”) is connected as a prefix to yom (יוֹם, which is the word for “day”). This Hebrew temporal adverb is often translated with the English prepositional phrase “in the day that.” This would be the essentially “woodenly literal” translation (although “the” and “that” are not in the Hebrew but are added to make the English sound smooth). But only sometimes (not always) does beyom refer to a literal day, in which case the context makes it clear. This same construction (beyom) appears in Genesis 2:4 and does not refer to a specific 24-hour day but to the whole creation week of six literal days. See also Numbers 7:10-84, where in verses 10 and 84 beyom refers to a period of twelve days of sacrifice.

But a different construction occurs in between those verses. There in verses 12, 18, 24, etc., which describe the sacrifices of each of those days, bayyom (בַּיּוֹם) is used, where the “a” (the vowel mark under the first Hebrew letter on the right) and the dot (dagesh) under the second letter on the right (yod) indicate the definite article “the.” (For days 11 and 12, in verses 72 and 78, we find beyom). The phrase beyom is therefore sometimes rightly translated as “when," referring to a period longer than a day, as in the NIV in both Genesis 2:4 and Genesis 2:17 (and in Numbers 7:10 and 84 and elsewhere—the NAS, HCSB and NKJV versions also translate it as “when” in these verses in Numbers).

Conclusion:
So, from all this we conclude that the construction “dying you shall die” and beyom in Genesis 2:17 do not require us to conclude that God was warning that “the very day you eat from the tree is the exact same day that you will die physically.” The Hebrew wording of Genesis 2:17 allows for a time lapse between the instantaneous spiritual death on that sad day of disobedience and the later physical death (which certainly did happen, just as God said, but for Adam it was 930 years later). As Scripture consistently teaches, both kinds of death (spiritual and physical) are the consequence of Adam’s rebellion. Therefore, Hugh Ross and other old-earth proponents are not correct when they say that spiritual death was the only consequent of Adam’s rebellion at the Fall.

References:
[1] Bruce K. Waltke and M. O’Conner, An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax, Winona Lake, Eisenbrauns, 1990, pp. 584–588.
[2] Ibid, p. 585.

Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.


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God's Truth

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It's not true, but it's what Satan told Eve, you will not surely die.

This is a very misleading statement because the word "surely" comes from the Hebrew word for die and the word "die" comes from the Hebrew word for die. Jesus' remission for sin was so that we only have to die once, not twice.

That second death is a killer.

We die a physical death but spirits do not die.
 

God's Truth

New member
There were 3 resurrections in the OT 5 in the NT not including His or others around...NO WRITTEN TESTIMONY AS TO WHAT HAPPENED AFTER DEATH...one of them was dead for 4 days...nothing

those that rose with Him we don't even know how long they were dead? Did they all have to come back from paradise? To die again?


I think people would really be interested by these accounts and be truly comforted to know...don't you think God wants His people comforted? Send them a comforter to tell them grandma says "Hi!"

Dead know NOTHING...

You claim you would be comforted, yet you deny what the scriptures say about our spirit living on after the death of our bodies.
 

JudgeRightly

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A part of the vision which itself is a metaphor...

Why do you think it's a metaphor? What does it stand for if it is a metaphor? What does it represent, given the context of what's going on?

Do you think John was lying when he said that God will "wipe away all our tears"?

or do you believe there really is a literal dragon up there? Physical horses galloping about? Other hybrid monsters...

Context?

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jamie

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We die a physical death but spirits do not die.

Scripture says that death is the separation of body and spirit.

A spirit without a body is a no body.

When Jesus yielded his spirit he was lifeless, considered dead and was entombed.

Do you believe Jesus relocated rather than died?
 
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keypurr

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Keypurr, I feel like I've asked this before, but who are the souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9-10?

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Revelations is not really a book to take at fact. It is very symbolic and connfusing. It contains a lot of prophecy that folks see in a different way. But I do not believe it is in contrast to the rest of scripture that says we know nothing in death.

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JudgeRightly

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Revelations is not really a book to take at fact. It is very symbolic and connfusing. It contains a lot of prophecy that folks see in a different way. But I do not believe it is in contrast to the rest of scripture that says we know nothing in death.

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It's only confusing because you don't take it literally enough. When was the last time you read all the way through Revelation? I challenge you to read through it all the way through with the mindset that everything that is said in the book is literal. I promise that it will blow your mind at how clear it is.

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keypurr

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It's only confusing because you don't take it literally enough. When was the last time you read all the way through Revelation? I challenge you to read through it all the way through with the mindset that everything that is said in the book is literal. I promise that it will blow your mind at how clear it is.

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Its been years since I did that. I went into it in depth. Studied a few theories, have read books on it. The closest theory on it comes from the SDA. But my memory is fail, my health is down down hill. But I will try to get back into it with you if you wish.
I still have a book called"Daniel and Revelation" that I got in 1962. It was written by Uriah Smith in 1944. You might find it of interest my friend.

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jamie

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Keypurr, I feel like I've asked this before, but who are the souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9-10?

It's metaphorical. Mary did not literally have a lamb. On the contrary animal blood was not efficacious for redeeming human sin.

One of the things a good speaker or writer does is add color to give life to the subject.
 

God's Truth

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Scripture says that death is the separation of body and spirit.

A spirit without a body is a no body.

When Jesus yielded his spirit he was lifeless, considered dead and was entombed.

Do you believe Jesus relocated rather than died?

Jesus says that Jesus lived in the Spirit.

You do not believe the scriptures so how can you be helped?

Call on Jesus to help you.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
It's metaphorical. Mary did not literally have a lamb. On the contrary animal blood was not efficacious for redeeming human sin.

One of the things a good speaker or writer does is add color to give life to the subject.
But the blood of Jesus can and did redeem us.

I am not a very colorful speaker jamie, I have problems expressing my thoughts.

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