The Trinity

[Lon]

Tell me then Lon, Can I believe Isaiah 9:6 and 1 John 5:7? How can you explain the total lack of "Trinitarian dogma" in the whole scripture if such a teaching was really intended? The temple veil was torn from top to bottom, the separation between us and God was removed, we no longer have need of priests to intercede for us because we have a high priest in the heavens. We are not to be shackled to priests, and councils, and decrees of men...

Imho, poor exegesis. This is NOT, in fact, what that scripture is saying. It is written to Hebrews "about no longer being sacrificial Jews."
Hebrews is a unique and necessary book BUT many gentiles fail (imho) to see that the book is written very specifically, to Jews in the N.T. To apply that book, one MUST understand it's context and recognize what actually applies to gentiles and what does not. Now, there are others who disagree with me, so I'll not contend this to any confrontational degree. I simply believe this passage you are giving is written specifically about priests (very different from the Catholic/Orthodox kind). So yes: No priests but elders, pastors, and teachers are yet given to the church and we are yet to learn from them and share all learned things with our teachers, who then will guide and correct. Many never have done this. I don't believe one can be a teacher or effective elder if they haven't gone through that learning process.

because we have been granted direct access to God if we will open our hearts and listen. Knock, and it shall be answered, he says. Ask wisdom, and it shall be granted liberally. I see no instructions from Jesus that we should be beholden to decrees. Why are we given scripture if we are dependent upon someone else for interpretation?

The Holy Spirit will not contradict the scriptures. "If" He contradicts a creedal statement, that correction would take a great intervention from Him to correct it and I'm convinced He would do so.

You speak of "lone rangers" as being something evil, but God's prophets have never been popular or accepted.

:nono: Don't know who told you this. It is incorrect. Now certainly the prophets were killed BUT there were colleges that Isaiah and his contemporaries attended. Again, "if" God has called you to be a lone-ranger, He would 1) authenticate and 2) do so in a way that would bring wayward people back to Himself. Frankly, most cultists have the exact same lone-ranger 'private interpretation' messages that are incredibly 'self' serving rather than God or church serving. They will also serve scripture revelation and never go against it. That person would have to be divinely enabled and, in the office exercised: nearly infallible in doctrine and life.

They stoned and killed the prophets, it is written. Martyrs have been burnt and reformers scorned and slain. I could be exacting and demand answers for all the questions I ask that are set aside, but I am willing to grant that God values the heart above knowledge. Knowledge can be granted when we stand before God, but a hardened heart is a different matter.

We know from the Samaritan woman that their contention was prideful and arrogant and against scripture. Jesus, though loving her, told her she needed to accept truth and place importance on it "salvation is of the Jews." That didn't give her ANY wiggle-room. The time is coming and is now here when those who worship the Father must do so in Spirit and Truth. There is no compromise or apology for His statement. He didn't say "Good girl." He raised her acceptable worship bar and made it clear which hoops she necessarily had to jump through. But, according to you, you don't need me or another to teach you, right? You'd know all this already, correct?

 

[Lon]

I've wasted more than I've ever spent righteously.

Kind of like home-schooling, no?

Proverbs 8:11
For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

It is because wisdom is better that I spent rubies on school... It indeed was/is to be preferred :up:

I know.

Not sure. Sometimes you seem to disdain a Biblical education. It ALWAYS amazes me when people are anti-education. If it isn't doing the job, fine, but rarely applies to seminary. How could an ignoramus (not necessarily you) know? Couldn't, right? That's why they are ignorant. Heard MANY of them. They blow my mind.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Kind of like home-schooling, no?

Yuh think?

It is because wisdom is better that I spent rubies on school... It indeed was/is to be preferred :up:

How was the price determined?

Not sure. Sometimes you seem to disdain a Biblical education. It ALWAYS amazes me when people are anti-education. If it isn't doing the job, fine, but rarely applies to seminary. How could an ignoramus (not necessarily you) know? Couldn't, right? That's why they are ignorant. Heard MANY of them. They blow my mind.

You can be sure that I was not agreeing with your decision to try and purchase what is free for the asking.

 

[Lon]

You can be sure that I was not agreeing with your decision to try and purchase what is free for the asking.

Proverbs 4:7. Think harder/better. You aren't a slouch BUT you didn't follow instructions quite to the T.

 

[DavidK]

That is indeed what the bulk of modern Trinitarian Christiandom is actually teaching while most of the time not even recognizing it. They by default claim to be Gods, and by their atonement doctrine it was only made possible for them because God died in their place, so that they could switch places with him and themselves become Gods.

Nonsense, you are confusing relationship with being. The atonement caused us to go from dead in our sin to sonship with the Father. It didn't transform us into deity.

If God has a God and God's God is not the only God then they too are Gods with a God, because they worship their Elder Brother who was not ashamed to call them brethren, and by becoming the brethren of God they too are God by default, (it's about as complicated as the Trinity, lol).

You're missing that God the Son is the only begotten son of the Father. When we become sons we become adopted sons, the same in relationship with the Father but not the same in essence.

 

[Rosenritter]

No priests but elders, pastors, and teachers are yet given to the church and we are yet to learn from them and share all learned things with our teachers, who then will guide and correct. Many never have done this. I don't believe one can be a teacher or effective elder if they haven't gone through that learning process.

From reading a few comments here, I infer that you went through formal seminary. I don't wish to give offense, but I haven't seen that many good results from the process, and they don't always seem to result in wisdom or growth in the spirit. I have seen some bad examples. Learning is valuable, but it may be that what one learns from a formal school may be more of what the formal school wants you to learn, rather than being what the spirit and scripture would speak if one were to step forward in faith and ask for understanding. I would that forums like these were more like Malachi 3:16 rather than reenactments of the philosophers arguments on Mars Hill.

Malachi 3:16-17 KJV
(16) Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
(17) And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

The Holy Spirit will not contradict the scriptures. "If" He contradicts a creedal statement, that correction would take a great intervention from Him to correct it and I'm convinced He would do so.

Matthew 23:15 KJV
(15) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.


I'm not sure I heard you correctly. You are implying that the holiness of a "Creedal Statement" is so great that God would not or could not stand by and let a creed (from anyone) be in error? Surely that's not what you meant. We aren't supposed to trust statements of men like that. That doesn't sound like how we are admonished to act.

Acts 17:11 KJV
(11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


In practical use, creeds are a way of turning off the "searching of the scriptures" and issued of a sort of shibboleth. Say it correctly, ever so correctly, and agree exactly with the creed, or be shunned as a heretic. That Trinity creed is oft used this way, as evidenced in the 2600+ posts of this thread forum. One can trust the scripture and believe each and every passage, but if they run afowl of the creed they are condemned and attacked. Yet if one supports the Creed they can contradict scripture, evade questions, deny logic, and they are upheld by the brotherhood of the creed. I hate pulling up James White again, but he's an excellent (bad) example.

:nono: Don't know who told you this. It is incorrect.

You don't know who told me this? That God's prophets have never been popular or accepted? Did you ever read Foxes' Book of Martyrs? What about scripture itself? Matthew 23:33-37, the parable of the vineyard in Luke 20, Micaiah vs the king of Israel (1 Kings 22), Ahab and Jezebeel vs Elijah, Israel's demand for a king instead of the prophet Samuel, the whole scripture is full of this story. The prophets of God are seldom popular or accepted. You don't know who told me this? Seriously?

Matthew 23:33-37 KJV
(33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
(34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
(35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
(36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Now certainly the prophets were killed BUT there were colleges that Isaiah and his contemporaries attended. Again, "if" God has called you to be a lone-ranger, He would 1) authenticate and 2) do so in a way that would bring wayward people back to Himself.

Seems to me that we are in an age when the plough-boy may know more scripture than the priests and bishops, when knowledge is increased and many run to and fro. The holy spirit can give wisdom and understanding to those who are unlearned, as God is championed by the weak and lowly of this world, and he is glorified in their weakness. Am I denigrating knowledge or study? Far from it, but it should not be something that is trusted in by itself lest it become a false assurance, a replacement for faith, or an idol.

How many priests of Baal stood against Elijah? Quite a few, I remember. The majority is not the deciding factor of truth. Yes, there was a great sign there as to whom God was supporting in that showdown, but that is not always the case. Right now Islam is widespread along the globe, and it has its own creeds. What special sign was invoked to oppose that creed? For some signs we must be patient. The ultimate sign is Christ's return, when the Rock strikes the image at its feet. In the meantime, what are we told?

Revelation 22:11-12 KJV
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Frankly, most cultists have the exact same lone-ranger 'private interpretation' messages that are incredibly 'self' serving rather than God or church serving. They will also serve scripture revelation and never go against it. That person would have to be divinely enabled and, in the office exercised: nearly infallible in doctrine and life.

Using David as a guide, a prophet and a man after God's own heart, I don't think that "infallible in doctrine and life" is necessarily the best measure. On the other side of the spectrum we have Jonah who was a prophet of God, and what we see of his life is far from infallible in doctrine and life. His message was true, but his heart had problems. Yet Jonah was only going along with the established majority view concerning the Gentiles. He would have been in agreement with the elders and the teachers. Apparently, God was not.

Luke 9:49-50 KJV
(49) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
(50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.


When God himself responds like that, does it really seem that his intention was for everyone to play a game of follow the leader, cite the creed, sign the prepared statement of beliefs? In that instance, Jesus and John had different reactions. Between the two, I think we would do better to follow the heart of Jesus. I think that was the decision that John ultimately made as well.

We know from the Samaritan woman that their contention was prideful and arrogant and against scripture. Jesus, though loving her, told her she needed to accept truth and place importance on it "salvation is of the Jews." That didn't give her ANY wiggle-room. The time is coming and is now here when those who worship the Father must do so in Spirit and Truth. There is no compromise or apology for His statement. He didn't say "Good girl." He raised her acceptable worship bar and made it clear which hoops she necessarily had to jump through.

Question? The "Samaritan woman was ... against scripture?" That doesn't make any sense. That wasn't part of their discussion.

Question? "Salvation is of the Jews." From the way you say that, I am not sure what you think that means? Salvation is of the Jews. Jesus was of the Jews, Jesus is their salvation, salvation is of the Jews and was born in Bethlehem. But did you consider the implication of the rest of that passage?

John 4:20-24 KJV
(20) Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
(21) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
(22) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
(23) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


We are no longer called to come to a mountain or travel to Jerusalem. "Spirit and truth" are the requirements, not "Creed and Council." Is it not written, that the just shall live by faith? Would you put a yoke around our necks and bind us to man-made laws and "fences" like that of the Pharisees, whom "neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" If we are to live by faith, it must be by genuine understanding in alignment with the spirit and word, not memorized words or signing on to the popular creeds without question. One is by faith, the other is devised by men.

Romans 14:23 KJV
(23) ... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

But, according to you, you don't need me or another to teach you, right? You'd know all this already, correct?

I am not sure we see eye to eye yet. You described "shall worship in spirit and truth" as "hoops she necessarily had to jump through?"

 

[Lon]

From reading a few comments here, I infer that you went through formal seminary. I don't wish to give offense, but I haven't seen that many good results from the process, and they don't always seem to result in wisdom or growth in the spirit. I have seen some bad examples. Learning is valuable, but it may be that what one learns from a formal school may be more of what the formal school wants you to learn, rather than being what the spirit and scripture would speak if one were to step forward in faith and ask for understanding.

Yeah but random sampling and insufficient data, no? I am literally blown away whenever I hear this kind of thing. I went to Multnomah Bible College/Seminary. Worth every penny.

I would that forums like these were more like Malachi 3:16 rather than reenactments of the philosophers arguments on Mars Hill.

On several of these, you have to realize they are 'debate' websites. This one not only embraces that, but makes no bones about it. It is important for understanding the banter. Realize some debate well and others debate poorly. It really helps me. If others are like it, I hope they embrace it as TOL does so that one knows what they are getting coming in the front door.

Malachi 3:16-17 KJV
(16) Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
(17) And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Doesn't a proper fear, other than being mindless or blind terror, come from knowing whom we respect and fear? I 'think' you are more on page doctrinally with me BUT making allowances for those who are not. Again, commendable to a point, but doctrine is very important. You'll even see 'doctrine' mentioned in scripture.

I'm not sure I heard you correctly. You are implying that the holiness of a "Creedal Statement" is so great that God would not or could not stand by and let a creed (from anyone) be in error? Surely that's not what you meant. We aren't supposed to trust statements of men like that. That doesn't sound like how we are admonished to act.

I believe anybody that doesn't, doesn't recognize the impact of them. It is an incredibly important history lesson. To miss it is to toss all of Christendom for theology invented only the past 40 to 60 years. Should we not know what God was doing to ascertain where we are at and how we got here? Next: Should we not listen to scholars who read, wrote, and spoke Hebrew, Greek, and Latin?

As important as scriptures? No, I am not Catholic, but I recognize much of my faith was hammered out on that soil.

Acts 17:11 KJV
(11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Bingo. NOBODY should balk at an education. In a nutshell, here is the problem with home-study: It is just you as the only resource and teacher. Bible College/Seminary exposed me to hundreds if not a thousand Christian minds that all had an impact and hand in shaping my/our theology. The home-school variety? Nowhere near so rich and about impossible. He/she is literally only as good as an audience and self-teaching of one can produce. Learning in a church with apt teachers, elders, and pastors? Much better with more minds and unity teaching and leading students. There is a lack of this discipleship in many churches and even a disdain of them with many of the cultists on this forum. They will proudly tell you they don't go to church and despise teachers, elders, and pastors today. About the weirdest thing I've ever heard in my life.

In practical use, creeds are a way of turning off the "searching of the scriptures" and issued of a sort of shibboleth. Say it correctly, ever so correctly, and agree exactly with the creed, or be shunned as a heretic. That Trinity creed is oft used this way, as evidenced in the 2600+ posts of this thread forum. One can trust the scripture and believe each and every passage, but if they run afowl of the creed they are condemned and attacked. Yet if one supports the Creed they can contradict scripture, evade questions, deny logic, and they are upheld by the brotherhood of the creed. I hate pulling up James White again, but he's an excellent (bad) example.

It is an ad hoc opinion I've seen propagated. It doesn't really carry a lot of weight to me. Creeds are merely what the church, better united than we are at present, hammered out together as to what they all believed and wouldn't accept as unbiblical and against scripture.

You don't know who told me this? That God's prophets have never been popular or accepted? Did you ever read Foxes' Book of Martyrs? What about scripture itself? Matthew 23:33-37, the parable of the vineyard in Luke 20, Micaiah vs the king of Israel (1 Kings 22), Ahab and Jezebeel vs Elijah, Israel's demand for a king instead of the prophet Samuel, the whole scripture is full of this story. The prophets of God are seldom popular or accepted. You don't know who told me this? Seriously?

Yep, I'm serious. It isn't the 'popularity' contest I was calling into question. Rather, I was telling you that the prophets weren't cultists nor anti-creedal/doctrinal. Simply to say "Hey, they don't like false-prophets or real prophets, therefore I'm in good company" is a bit of a wide jump to conclusion, no?

Seems to me that we are in an age when the plough-boy may know more scripture than the priests and bishops, when knowledge is increased and many run to and fro. The holy spirit can give wisdom and understanding to those who are unlearned, as God is championed by the weak and lowly of this world, and he is glorified in their weakness. Am I denigrating knowledge or study? Far from it, but it should not be something that is trusted in by itself lest it become a false assurance, a replacement for faith, or an idol.

The day when a student who can't read a lick of Greek or Hebrew, thinks he's smarter than one who can and in some strange embrace of twisted logic thinks that this 'no-education' is now a better and more noble one than the Berean, who actually studied hard, then it is nothing but a Satanic lie of delusion. Given the same Spirit and love of God between two individuals, I'll take the seminary student over the plough boy every day of the week - no contest. It is frankly intellectual-educational suicide the other way and I cannot fathom one thinking God is more pleased with the 'no commitment to study or learn from betters' as being the mark of spirituality. Not everybody 'can' go to seminary. I'm not nor ever knocking the laity. I'm knocking the prideful ignoramus who says "I'm smarter, more in touch with God, and better than the seminary professor or his students." That guy I have no time for. He's non-too-bright and a complete waste of my and the Lord's time.

How many priests of Baal stood against Elijah? Quite a few, I remember. The majority is not the deciding factor of truth. Yes, there was a great sign there as to whom God was supporting in that showdown, but that is not always the case. Right now Islam is widespread along the globe, and it has its own creeds. What special sign was invoked to oppose that creed? For some signs we must be patient. The ultimate sign is Christ's return, when the Rock strikes the image at its feet. In the meantime, what are we told?

:doh: We are talking about a duel of taught-priests here, not laity verses their pastors. That fight is just not pleasing to God. It is anarchy and violates honoring parents and elders.

Using David as a guide, a prophet and a man after God's own heart, I don't think that "infallible in doctrine and life" is necessarily the best measure. On the other side of the spectrum we have Jonah who was a prophet of God, and what we see of his life is far from infallible in doctrine and life. His message was true, but his heart had problems. Yet Jonah was only going along with the established majority view concerning the Gentiles. He would have been in agreement with the elders and the teachers. Apparently, God was not.

Right. So Jesus told the Samaritan woman "Spirit and Truth." Pitting one against the other was the bad idea, remember?

Luke 9:49-50 KJV
(49) And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
(50) And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

ALL Jews at this point in the story. I've noticed you do a bit of whitewashing with scripture in overstated blanket expressions and application. Again, good heart, but it is better if the heart follows the head rather than vise-versa imho. Either way, it yet has to be Spirit and Truth. I'm obviously trying to get you to love doctrine. It is your friend. Not only that, you have a good head on your shoulders. "Study" to shew thyself an approved workman :up:

When God himself responds like that, does it really seem that his intention was for everyone to play a game of follow the leader, cite the creed, sign the prepared statement of beliefs? In that instance, Jesus and John had different reactions. Between the two, I think we would do better to follow the heart of Jesus. I think that was the decision that John ultimately made as well.

Read this again, and below with your other sentiments:
John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Question? The "Samaritan woman was ... against scripture?" That doesn't make any sense. That wasn't part of their discussion.

Read the 3 verse just above again. What was He concerned with when correcting her?

Question? "Salvation is of the Jews." From the way you say that, I am not sure what you think that means? Salvation is of the Jews. Jesus was of the Jews, Jesus is their salvation, salvation is of the Jews and was born in Bethlehem. But did you consider the implication of the rest of that passage?
John 4:20-24 KJV
(20) Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
(21) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
(22) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
(23) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.



We are no longer called to come to a mountain or travel to Jerusalem. "Spirit and truth" are the requirements, not "Creed and Council." Is it not written, that the just shall live by faith? Would you put a yoke around our necks and bind us to man-made laws and "fences" like that of the Pharisees, whom "neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" If we are to live by faith, it must be by genuine understanding in alignment with the spirit and word, not memorized words or signing on to the popular creeds without question. One is by faith, the other is devised by men.

Implication is that they believed He was the Savior but we don't know more than this. Did they come to Him after Pentecost? We aren't told and would have to 'guess.' Guessing is a terrible way to do theology imho. Do me a small favor and spend a few moments contemplating these scriptures: Romans 16:7 Ephesians 4:14 1 Timothy 1:3;4:6;6:3 Titus 1:9;2:1
The emphasis is on the importance of doctrine (what is true).

Romans 14:23 KJV
(23) ... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I've cut out a few of your scriptures simply because I've no idea how they 'apply.' They seem scattered and random as thoughts and after thoughts rather than pertinent. This isn't saying what you think it means. Romans applies to something different though 'spirit' is the same word. It is not, however, directly related to our discussion, nor were a few of your other verses.

I am not sure we see eye to eye yet. You described "shall worship in spirit and truth" as "hoops she necessarily had to jump through?"

Yes. Of course, else it leads to universalism theology very very very quickly. In universalism, there is no need to even talk about truth because 'it all works out in the end' is the working theology/theory. Without doctrine, there is no point to discussion because even in a disagreement between you, I, and the wall of TOL, "it all works out in the end." Unless we are arguing doctrine that does indeed matter and we MUST necessarily know, then there is nothing we could accomplish by debate or discussion. Doctrine is what separated the Samaritans and the Jews. Doctrine does indeed separate. Jesus nor the Prophets shied from that. The one with authority gets to make the rules. God gets to tell us what to believe, whether we like it or want to or even not. We can't make our own truth, nor play by simply our own rules as if we are islands unto ourselves. There can be no salvation in that. I can't save myself. I have to know the rules. One who doesn't like rules, doesn't play baseball. They might play Pokémon, but they can't play an organized sport. Analogy is that Christianity has some important rules. We may not like all doctrine, but we are not longer playing "Christian" if we ignore all the creeds (rules). -Lon

 

[daqq]

Nonsense, you are confusing relationship with being. The atonement caused us to go from dead in our sin to sonship with the Father. It didn't transform us into deity.

Can you therefore explain from the scripture how "the atonement" did that for you? Please be advised that your understanding of the Apostolic writings MUST be in compliance with Torah and even all the Tanach "Old Testament" or your understanding of whatever it is you decide to quote is either misunderstood or mistranslated. Or if you think a new thread should be started then feel free to do so.

 

[marhig]

Or worse, not spent a penny at all and think one does have a handle? I'll take the former. My prowess is well-informed as to what I can and cannot assert from scripture. Worth every penny.

Did you pay money to learn about God?

 

[marhig]

"as." the emphasis will probably be lost on you. Most cultists are just as bad with English as they would be if they took another language. It is that 'smarter than you' without really being actually 'smarter.' It is sad when C- grades think they can do better than I. Frankly... :nono:

Don't be so sure of yourself, God is smarter than all of us, and if he's in the heart of a person then it doesn't matter what grade they are, God will give them the understanding.

1 Corinthians 1

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord

We can learn all the scriptures we want to, and pay the very best for education. But without the spirit we're dead. God can raise us up with Christ without any education when we have faith, become a living sacrifice and love him with all our hearts. God doesn't come through money, but through love. And those charging to teach to word of God are wrong.

Why do we need to pay to learn about God, when a have the author of the Bible within our hearts?

Jesus said, freely ye have received, freely give

Jesus didn't take anything for teaching, nor did his apostles. They gave everything freely and as God gave it to them, they gave it out.

 

[Lon]

Did you pay money to learn about God?

2 Timothy 2:15 Proverbs 4:7-8;8:32-36 Psalm 34:11 1 Thessalonians 2:11-12

Yes. No man is an island, especially if he/she is in Christ
Romans 12:5

Don't be so sure of yourself, God is smarter than all of us, and if he's in the heart of a person then it doesn't matter what grade they are, God will give them the understanding.

Er, not by osmosis. Again 1 Thessalonians 2:11-12
The Bereans were more noble because they studied.
Hosea 4:6 I am so sure because I'm not ignorant nor ignorantly talking.

1 Corinthians 1

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord

True. God fills all our lack BUT not many are called to be teachers. Some are. Fact. Why would we need the gift of teaching? Think a little harder and don't be ignorant.

We can learn all the scriptures we want to, and pay the very best for education.
But without the spirit we're dead.

No argument here BUT if one is wise in his/her choice, with the Spirit, this is a moot point.

God can raise us up with Christ without any education when we have faith, become a living sacrifice and love him with all our hearts. God doesn't come through money, but through love. And those charging to teach to word of God are wrong.

:sigh: Sorry this is scripturally ignorant 1 Timothy 5:17-18 I realize people have a real problem with being 'charged' and I understand the problem. Paul wrestled with this from both perspectives and became a tent-maker when necessary BUT Acts says the Apostles needed to be devoted to teaching so they appointed others to take care of the other needs in the body. Sadly, you are setting yourself up for a cult of ignorance and it is always a terrible trap in shiny wrappings. It isn't true. I appreciate the heart, but a mind in ignorance and hoping for Spiritual osmosis as they sleep at night is being lazy. Proverbs talks about this and it can never be blessed. It just is not how the Spirit works. You have to study in order for the Spirit to guide you. With some "just me and my Bible" doesn't even include a bible

Why do we need to pay to learn about God, when a have the author of the Bible within our hearts?

1) Because no man is an island ala Romans 12:4-5
2) Because the Gift of teaching is extent 1 Corinthians 12:28 We cannot dismiss teachers if it is still a gift of the Spirit. And it is.

Jesus said, freely ye have received, freely give

And I'm passing on what the Spirit and God gave me and/or I paid for and it isn't costing you. These same men teach in their churches and serve BUT when it comes to intensive teaching at hours a day, they cannot do it for free even though I'm positive, if they could, each would do so. Read the verse from Timothy already given.

Jesus didn't take anything for teaching, nor did his apostles. They gave everything freely and as God gave it to them, they gave it out.

Not true, and the Spirit didn't teach you by osmosis what the truth is. He is using 'me' just now to teach and correct you: John 12:6;13:29 (not prideful teaching, just trying to get you to realize teachers are still part of God's plan today and for a reason).

 

[marhig]

2 Timothy 2:15 Proverbs 4:7-8;8:32-36 Psalm 34:11 1 Thessalonians 2:11-12

Yes. No man is an island, especially if he/she is in Christ
Romans 12:5


Er, not by osmosis. Again 1 Thessalonians 2:11-12
The Bereans were more noble because they studied.
Hosea 4:6 I am so sure because I'm not ignorant nor ignorantly talking.



True. God fills all our lack BUT not many are called to be teachers. Some are. Fact. Why would we need the gift of teaching? Think a little harder and don't be ignorant.

No argument here BUT if one is wise in his/her choice, with the Spirit, this is a moot point.
:sigh: Sorry this is scripturally ignorant 1 Timothy 5:17-18 I realize people have a real problem with being 'charged' and I understand the problem. Paul wrestled with this from both perspectives and became a tent-maker when necessary BUT Acts says the Apostles needed to be devoted to teaching so they appointed others to take care of the other needs in the body. Sadly, you are setting yourself up for a cult of ignorance and it is always a terrible trap in shiny wrappings. It isn't true. I appreciate the heart, but a mind in ignorance and hoping for Spiritual osmosis as they sleep at night is being lazy. Proverbs talks about this and it can never be blessed. It just is not how the Spirit works. You have to study in order for the Spirit to guide you. With some "just me and my Bible" doesn't even include a bible


1) Because no man is an island ala Romans 12:4-5
2) Because the Gift of teaching is extent 1 Corinthians 12:28 We cannot dismiss teachers if it is still a gift of the Spirit. And it is.
And I'm passing on what the Spirit and God gave me and/or I paid for and it isn't costing you. These same men teach in their churches and serve BUT when it comes to intensive teaching at hours a day, they cannot do it for free even though I'm positive, if they could, each would do so. Read the verse from Timothy already given.


Not true, and the Spirit didn't teach you by osmosis what the truth is. He is using 'me' just now to teach and correct you: John 12:6;13:29 (not prideful teaching, just trying to get you to realize teachers are still part of God's plan today and for a reason).

I don't agree with you, Gods people shouldn't take money for doing Gods work, I've read those verses and none of them say anything about receiving money for teaching. And yes we need teachers, but once one becomes a teacher, then they should be being fed by the holy spirit, and God should be providing them with what they need to say. Reading the scriptures to me is very important, but the spirit in the hearts of those people should also be teaching them directly into their hearts and giving them what they need to say fresh from God. Just look at the strength that Peter, Paul and others had after they received the holy spirit, compared to what they were like before. They had totally changed into pillars of strength in God and they had been given power by the spirit.

Also, I notice that you quote this verse

1 Timothy 5 17:18

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

This isn't anything about money, it's about receiving wisdom and understanding for doing Gods work, this is the reward that Gods labourers are worthy of.

Seeing as you mentioned the bereans, I thought I'd show you this verse from the Bible in their translation.

Acts 4:13

When they saw the boldness of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and recognized that they had been with Jesus.

We don't need to be schooled and educated in God, but to walk with Jesus. We have the Bible and we have the living God and with faith he will provide us with what we need, when we need it.

When David fought Goliath, Saul offered him his armour, but David refused it, because he knew that God would cover him and give him what he needed, David was only young, but he had complete faith in God and went in where a whole army were afraid of going, David, a young shepherds boy against a strong seasoned warrior, and he went with no other man's armour, he went by faith and and took just his staff, sling, and 5 smooth stones from the brook that God had provided for him. And he killed Goliath with his first shot, then used Goliath's own sword to take off his head. God provided David with what he needed when he needed it.

Jesus said this Matthew 17

Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you

If we have complete faith in God, God will provide for us and give us what we need by the spirit we will be spiritually alive. Reading the Bible and studying it knowing all the scriptures doesn't make us alive in God, reading the Bible doesn't give us understanding we must be alive in the spirit to be wise in God.

1 Corinthians 2

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual

 

[Rosenritter]

I will try to skip past lengthy replies here. You had enough text that I believe I can infer your much of your perspective, thank you. Please allow me to briefly respond and/or clear any possible misconceptions.

First, I am hardly against sound doctrine, and I do not discourage knowledge. However, I believe that your trust is misplaced if you depend on tradition or your chosen college to establish that doctrine. Your college said that they believed the scripture to be faithful and true and without error. I think that is a fine statement, but that is meaningless unless you allow that your own understanding, or even that taught by your college, creeds or tradition, need be checked against that scripture not being inerrant itself.

Second, when I place heart above knowledge, I do so from the words of Paul himself, as he writes to us in Corinthians chapter 13. Paul was educated in the Hebrew scriptures and knowledgeable indeed, yet he said this was only secondary. Paul is not alone in this, it is also repeated oft (albeit in different words) by Jesus and John.

1 Corinthians 13:8 KJV
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

I believe anybody that doesn't, doesn't recognize the impact of them. It is an incredibly important history lesson. To miss it is to toss all of Christendom for theology invented only the past 40 to 60 years.

Third, isn't that my point? Why should we depend on "invented theology" when we have the scriptures themselves? When you read Paul speak to the Romans, what does he says is the advantage of the Jew? Does he not say that unto them were committed the oracles of God? The scripture? When we have the printed word why should we subject ourselves to be blind following the blind? Yes, I will say that much of what is considered "Christian tradition" is in blindness. When you start with a foundation of Rock and build upon his words you can get a much clearer vision than when you start with the traditions of men and are made to force them into and on top of scripture.

Mark 7:7 KJV
(7) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The day when a student who can't read a lick of Greek or Hebrew, thinks he's smarter than one who can and in some strange embrace of twisted logic thinks that this 'no-education' is now a better and more noble one than the Berean, who actually studied hard, then it is nothing but a Satanic lie of delusion.

So how many licks of Greek or Hebrew does one need before God can speak to someone from the pages of our English bible that he so graciously provided for us through the blood of martyrs, men who were even far more learned than those at our disposal today?

ALL Jews at this point in the story. I've noticed you do a bit of whitewashing with scripture in overstated blanket expressions and application.

Rhetorically, does being Jewish have something to do with soundness of doctrine or rightness of heart? Didn't Jesus reserve his harshest words for the Jews that "knew not the scripture, neither the power of God" or that were of their father Satan, the devil?

But please let me explain why I reacted badly to "shall worship in spirit and truth" as being "hoops she had to jump through." Worship in spirit and truth is not a burden, and it is antithetical to jumping through hoops. We are not called to observe rites and times, for observances and ceremonies at this city or that mountain or in this other temple. Spirit and truth is real freedom, freedom in Christ, removal of the yoke that our forefathers were unable to bear. It is not a drudgery and not meaningless symbols. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's what it reminded me of.

 

[Lon]

I don't agree with you, Gods people shouldn't take money for doing Gods work, I've read those verses and none of them say anything about receiving money for teaching.

Again, this is scripturally ignorant. Again, I have no problem with giving away what is also freely given BUT it is not a rule from the NT church and in fact, is the opposite of a good understanding of both Jesus' and Paul's ministry. You can 'not like it' all you like and disagree all you like, but such isn't scriptural. Some churches pass the plate, some do not. I'd love to see a few pass the plate less, simply to get people attached to their mammon, away from thinking churches are at all attached to it either. I am convinced, if God calls us to ministry, He will provide for that ministry. Quibbling over how such will be accomplished is well beyond the intent of this thread. Start a new one about "Money & Ministry." It will go a long ways if done right because Jesus talks about finances and trusting Him quite a bit. You'd likely be surprised that I'd be on page with some of this in agreement, but as far as providing for the needs of a pastor of a church? No, I prefer him to be freed up to take care of the needs of the congregation as much as he can. I have had several pastors who systematically had all members over for Sunday dinner over the course of two years (how long it took). A pastor accessible to his people is well worth the cost to keep him accessible.

And yes we need teachers, but once one becomes a teacher, then they should be being fed by the holy spirit, and God should be providing them with what they need to say. Reading the scriptures to me is very important, but the spirit in the hearts of those people should also be teaching them directly into their hearts and giving them what they need to say fresh from God. Just look at the strength that Peter, Paul and others had after they received the holy spirit, compared to what they were like before. They had totally changed into pillars of strength in God and they had been given power by the spirit.

:up: Glad you are not one of those who disdains the church, elders, pastors, and teachers. You'd be surprised how many do on TOL. They don't go to church, won't be under a pastor, won't be taught.

... I notice:
1 Timothy 5 17:18

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

This isn't anything about money, it's about receiving wisdom and understanding for doing Gods work, this is the reward that Gods labourers are worthy of.

:nono: Read it again: 1Timothy 5:18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."
This is directly connected to the elder worth a double portion. Think about the 'loving and grateful' thing and you'll get this. Teachers are never paid what they are worth. I know a few pastors working while they try and help small churches. They are not as freed up but they love their communities and do what it takes to minister to them. Again, think: "what is the loving thing" and "what would likely be better for that congregation."

Seeing as you mentioned the bereans, I thought I'd show you this verse from the Bible in their translation.
Acts 4:13
When they saw the boldness of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and recognized that they had been with Jesus.

:think: Wow, just one year less than with Jesus, day and night, than my 4 years in seminary... :think: How 'unlearned' were you supposing? As 'unlearned as yourself?' I have to ask. Sorry, I really do.

We don't need to be schooled and educated in God, but to walk with Jesus. We have the Bible and we have the living God and with faith he will provide us with what we need, when we need it.

Some people are very well self-disciplined for this kind of study. They are sadly far and few between. I spent 4 years, 12-16 hours a day, studying scripture. For that kind of discipline, I was willing to pay. I wanted the intense course. In addition, I had nearly 1000 teachers, fellow students, volunteers, and employees to bounce everything off of. A personal study just cannot compete. If a church is doing a good job, its congregation will get a bit of this kind of superior education. God has called us to be a body and be accountable to one. We have a lot of egocentric pride these days that gets in the way.

When David fought Goliath, Saul offered him his armour, but David refused it, because he knew that God would cover him and give him what he needed, David was only young, but he had complete faith in God and went in where a whole army were afraid of going, David, a young shepherds boy against a strong seasoned warrior, and he went with no other man's armour, he went by faith and and took just his staff, sling, and 5 smooth stones from the brook that God had provided for him. And he killed Goliath with his first shot, then used Goliath's own sword to take off his head. God provided David with what he needed when he needed it.

Is this what you think that story was about? :think:

Jesus said this Matthew 17
Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you

There isn't a disagreement here. Remember I've told you I have no problem with one studying and learning. I had to study on my own because the church I was in until I was 16 only gave social messages and very little Bible. I don't disdain one studying. Rather, I am saying that it doesn't compare to a formal education. Not everyone can let alone will, go to Bible college. The point here, rather, was that this person then must lean a bit more heavily on teachers. I'd expect a sizable library, for instance, if he wants to teach/preach.

If we have complete faith in God, God will provide for us and give us what we need by the spirit we will be spiritually alive. Reading the Bible and studying it knowing all the scriptures doesn't make us alive in God, reading the Bible doesn't give us understanding we must be alive in the spirit to be wise in God.

Yes. Again Spirit and Truth. Spirit or Truth will never work.

1 Corinthians 2
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual

Agreed BUT many use this to disdain teachers and pastors. This passage, out of context, is abused against the gift of teaching/preaching. In context, it is talking about pitting one teacher over against another "Paul vs Apollos." He isn't saying "don't listen to a teacher" but rather "All teaching comes from Christ, therefore unity in Him is the rule." 1 Corinthians 1:13 It is rather about the "my pastor is better than your's."

 

[Lon]

I will try to skip past lengthy replies here. You had enough text that I believe I can infer your much of your perspective, thank you. Please allow me to briefly respond and/or clear any possible misconceptions.

First, I am hardly against sound doctrine, and I do not discourage knowledge. However, I believe that your trust is misplaced if you depend on tradition or your chosen college to establish that doctrine. Your college said that they believed the scripture to be faithful and true and without error. I think that is a fine statement, but that is meaningless unless you allow that your own understanding, or even that taught by your college, creeds or tradition, need be checked against that scripture not being inerrant itself.

So you or I become the lone arbiter of right and wrong? :nono: We certainly are in charge of our belief BUT we are foolish to ignore sound doctrine and Godly men.

Second, when I place heart above knowledge, I do so from the words of Paul himself, as he writes to us in Corinthians chapter 13. Paul was educated in the Hebrew scriptures and knowledgeable indeed, yet he said this was only secondary. Paul is not alone in this, it is also repeated oft (albeit in different words) by Jesus and John.

Truth and Relationship. Not either/or. Love without standing for what is right is not love. Jesus didn't "just love" when you took a whip and overturned temple tax tables.

1 Corinthians 13:8 KJV
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

[/COLOR]

Again, Truth and Relationship.

Third, isn't that my point? Why should we depend on "invented theology" when we have the scriptures themselves? When you read Paul speak to the Romans, what does he says is the advantage of the Jew? Does he not say that unto them were committed the oracles of God? The scripture? When we have the printed word why should we subject ourselves to be blind following the blind? Yes, I will say that much of what is considered "Christian tradition" is in blindness. When you start with a foundation of Rock and build upon his words you can get a much clearer vision than when you start with the traditions of men and are made to force them into and on top of scripture.

You alone? You by yourself saying "Christian" tradition is in blindness??? :think: One man, alone? Voice in the wilderness? The most pertinent: Has God called you or are you a self-appointed prophet? Did God call you to go against His church?
:think:

Mark 7:7 KJV
(7) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Do you know the context? What Jesus was specifically addressing here? It is rather important.
What tradition was Jesus talking about here, specifically? (traditions against scriptures)

So how many licks of Greek or Hebrew does one need before God can speak to someone from the pages of our English bible that he so graciously provided for us through the blood of martyrs, men who were even far more learned than those at our disposal today?

:idunno: There are still scholars today. When do you raise yourself above any one of them? :idunno: Like I said, it never makes sense to me, so I honestly don't know.

Rhetorically, does being Jewish have something to do with soundness of doctrine or rightness of heart? Didn't Jesus reserve his harshest words for the Jews that "knew not the scripture, neither the power of God" or that were of their father Satan, the devil?

Better than rhetorical, I think it hits to the heart of the education issue: Do we ever pit scripture against scripture? Remain ignorant that such seemingly exists? I believe the answer is in study. The Jews had the correct doctrine. It doesn't mean they followed it. That is why, if you follow, Jesus told the disciples to do as they said, not as they did. Salvation was definitely 'of the Jews.' Samaritans were 'of the Jews' too, just they rejected sound doctrine. The Jews had it, even if they didn't know it (specifically the Pharisees).

But please let me explain why I reacted badly to "shall worship in spirit and truth" as being "hoops she had to jump through." Worship in spirit and truth is not a burden, and it is antithetical to jumping through hoops. We are not called to observe rites and times, for observances and ceremonies at this city or that mountain or in this other temple. Spirit and truth is real freedom, freedom in Christ, removal of the yoke that our forefathers were unable to bear. It is not a drudgery and not meaningless symbols. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's what it reminded me of.

Well, "tradition" does not necessarily mean 'truth.' When I say "doctrine," it is 'scriptural truth' that I'm equating. It would seem, however that perhaps it is a difference of definition and meaning here that may be causing a bit of this, sure.

 

[marhig]

Again, this is scripturally ignorant. Again, I have no problem with giving away what is also freely given BUT it is not a rule from the NT church and in fact, is the opposite of a good understanding of both Jesus' and Paul's ministry. You can 'not like it' all you like and disagree all you like, but such isn't scriptural. Some churches pass the plate, some do not. I'd love to see a few pass the plate less, simply to get people attached to their mammon, away from thinking churches are at all attached to it either. I am convinced, if God calls us to ministry, He will provide for that ministry. Quibbling over how such will be accomplished is well beyond the intent of this thread. Start a new one about "Money & Ministry." It will go a long ways if done right because Jesus talks about finances and trusting Him quite a bit. You'd likely be surprised that I'd be on page with some of this in agreement, but as far as providing for the needs of a pastor of a church? No, I prefer him to be freed up to take care of the needs of the congregation as much as he can. I have had several pastors who systematically had all members over for Sunday dinner over the course of two years (how long it took). A pastor accessible to his people is well worth the cost to keep him accessible.

:up: Glad you are not one of those who disdains the church, elders, pastors, and teachers. You'd be surprised how many do on TOL. They don't go to church, won't be under a pastor, won't be taught.

:nono: Read it again: 1Timothy 5:18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."
This is directly connected to the elder worth a double portion. Think about the 'loving and grateful' thing and you'll get this. Teachers are never paid what they are worth. I know a few pastors working while they try and help small churches. They are not as freed up but they love their communities and do what it takes to minister to them. Again, think: "what is the loving thing" and "what would likely be better for that congregation."


:think: Wow, just one year less than with Jesus, day and night, than my 4 years in seminary... :think: How 'unlearned' were you supposing? As 'unlearned as yourself?' I have to ask. Sorry, I really do.
Some people are very well self-disciplined for this kind of study. They are sadly far and few between. I spent 4 years, 12-16 hours a day, studying scripture. For that kind of discipline, I was willing to pay. I wanted the intense course. In addition, I had nearly 1000 teachers, fellow students, volunteers, and employees to bounce everything off of. A personal study just cannot compete. If a church is doing a good job, its congregation will get a bit of this kind of superior education. God has called us to be a body and be accountable to one. We have a lot of egocentric pride these days that gets in the way.


Is this what you think that story was about? :think:


There isn't a disagreement here. Remember I've told you I have no problem with one studying and learning. I had to study on my own because the church I was in until I was 16 only gave social messages and very little Bible. I don't disdain one studying. Rather, I am saying that it doesn't compare to a formal education. Not everyone can let alone will, go to Bible college. The point here, rather, was that this person then must lean a bit more heavily on teachers. I'd expect a sizable library, for instance, if he wants to teach/preach.
Yes. Again Spirit and Truth. Spirit or Truth will never work.


Agreed BUT many use this to disdain teachers and pastors. This passage, out of context, is abused against the gift of teaching/preaching. In context, it is talking about pitting one teacher over against another "Paul vs Apollos." He isn't saying "don't listen to a teacher" but rather "All teaching comes from Christ, therefore unity in Him is the rule." 1 Corinthians 1:13 It is rather about the "my pastor is better than your's."

I believe in teachers in God, I was taught by an amazing teacher, he was a lay preacher who had a very high up job and once he heard the word of God, he let it all go and took a job as a rat catcher to be among the people and talk to them about God and with what little money he had he helped where he could. Eventually he started preaching on the streets by the docks in Liverpool, he didn't need to work out what he'd say he relied completely on God and he never run done. God always gave him plenty. He was a good teacher, and preacher, without him laying down his life and following Jesus, I may never have known God without a someone bringing him to me.

Romans 10

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher

So we need people to teach and preach to those who don't know God, but i don't believe that we should have to pay or be paid for doing Gods work, I was never charged a penny, nor did he charge anyone else. In fact he would try and help me more he was a very kind hearted man, and loved God with his all, and God blessed him. He gave him the double portion which was plenty of wisdom and understanding and he was filled with the power of the spirit and I know that Christ was with him

I'm glad you believe that the apostles were taught well by Jesus, I have said this on here, bit others seem to think that the apostles didn't have a clue and didn't know the gospel, although even being taught by Jesus didn't give them strength and power, you can the difference before and after being converted by the spirit and the difference in them once they were full of the holy ghost. They absolutely knew the gospel and they were absolutely full of the spirit who taught them and gave them utterance daily.

As for David and Goliath, do you see anything in that chapter? I mean, can you see anything of God? Do you believe that the Bible has deeper meanings that are hidden?

Thanks for answering

 

[Rosenritter]

:up: Glad you are not one of those who disdains the church, elders, pastors, and teachers. You'd be surprised how many do on TOL. They don't go to church, won't be under a pastor, won't be taught.

Agreed BUT many use this to disdain teachers and pastors. This passage, out of context, is abused against the gift of teaching/preaching. In context, it is talking about pitting one teacher over against another "Paul vs Apollos." He isn't saying "don't listen to a teacher" but rather "All teaching comes from Christ, therefore unity in Him is the rule." 1 Corinthians 1:13 It is rather about the "my pastor is better than your's."

I have respect for respectable persons who are working in any good work. This does not mean I grant blanket respect to someone that claims to be a pastor or teacher. I have learned the hard way that is a bad assumption to make.

The truth is that not all teaching comes from Christ, not all pastors are serving past appearances. Why would we have passages like these if it were not so?

Jeremiah 23:1 KJV
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord .

Mark 13:5-6 KJV
And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: [6] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ ; and shall deceive many.

Luke 11:52-54 KJV
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. [53] And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things: [54] Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Human nature hasn't changed since Christ's day.

 

[Lon]

I believe in teachers in God, I was taught by an amazing teacher, he was a lay preacher who had a very high up job and once he heard the word of God, he let it all go and took a job as a rat catcher to be among the people and talk to them about God and with what little money he had he helped where he could. Eventually he started preaching on the streets by the docks in Liverpool, he didn't need to work out what he'd say he relied completely on God and he never run done. God always gave him plenty. He was a good teacher, and preacher, without him laying down his life and following Jesus, I may never have known God without a someone bringing him to me.

Romans 10

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher

So we need people to teach and preach to those who don't know God, but i don't believe that we should have to pay or be paid for doing Gods work, I was never charged a penny, nor did he charge anyone else. In fact he would try and help me more he was a very kind hearted man, and loved God with his all, and God blessed him. He gave him the double portion which was plenty of wisdom and understanding and he was filled with the power of the spirit and I know that Christ was with him

A bit different: you are talking about an evangelist. He may be a gifted teacher or apt to teach as well, sounds like. Some churches support them like they do missionaries (evangelist/teachers to other countries).

I'm glad you believe that the apostles were taught well by Jesus, I have said this on here, bit others seem to think that the apostles didn't have a clue and didn't know the gospel, although even being taught by Jesus didn't give them strength and power, you can the difference before and after being converted by the spirit and the difference in them once they were full of the holy ghost. They absolutely knew the gospel and they were absolutely full of the spirit who taught them and gave them utterance daily.

Right, schools are a good thing. Sunday School is always free from what I can tell. Again, I chose to pay because I wanted to up the pace and my learning curve.

As for David and Goliath, do you see anything in that chapter? I mean, can you see anything of God? Do you believe that the Bible has deeper meanings that are hidden?

Lest I over-spiritualize a text, not really. I'm not saying that such isn't possible, but rather that the straight-forward message is the most important one to pay attention to and tenable by all who love God and are led by His Spirit.

Thanks for answering

Thanks for asking. Have a terrific day.

 

[Lon]

I have respect for respectable persons who are working in any good work. This does not mean I grant blanket respect to someone that claims to be a pastor or teacher. I have learned the hard way that is a bad assumption to make.

The truth is that not all teaching comes from Christ, not all pastors are serving past appearances. Why would we have passages like these if it were not so?

Jeremiah 23:1 KJV
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord .

True.

Mark 13:5-6 KJV
And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: [6] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ ; and shall deceive many.

I'm not really hearing pastors say they are messiahs. There are a lot of cults that do, but I'd guess we are on page over that matter.

Luke 11:52-54 KJV
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. [53] And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things: [54] Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Human nature hasn't changed since Christ's day.

True. We have to be careful of coming to a debate website like this. We all are the very lawyer-types described. My point in doing so is 1) to stand the gauntlet and hone my theology 2) to serve, wherever I may, and perhaps make a cogent Spirit-led point or two, and 3) to discuss more than banter (so not really as much a lawyer). I do champion orthodoxy in the sense that it is better to side there than to cause strife unless it is deemed a crucial matter. Again, Martin Luther nailed what he deemed 95 crucial points of needed contention. I try and pick and choose my battles based on similar. I avoid a few threads simply because they get heated and I don't deem them crucial thus not needing my input, nor really serving God or them. If I'm to be a lawyer, I want to be for God and men, not/not-just my protected interests/theology. Seems to be similar sentiment but we seem also to have a difference in our typical response to what is orthodox. I think orthodoxy and tradition tend to be good, rather than bad. I have no qualms with the idea that some of them are up for redress and inspection but want to see the 'very good reason' for doing so and it has to please God and proceed carefully in love and respect. Cults don't tend to play that way, and so this brings us back around to the topic of the thread: I believe unless a cultist believes the matter is salvific, they err in the way they question and challenge what is orthodox and they also do so in personal pride and self-interest rather than in a love and interest in Christ and His church. Such would be evident. On TOL? Probably understandable to some extent but yet, I think it best if our motives to debate are the best/right ones. In Him

 

[Rosenritter]

True.
I'm not really hearing pastors say they are messiahs. There are a lot of cults that do, but I'd guess we are on page over that matter.

Mat 24:5 KJV
(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


It would seem contradictory to come in the name of Jesus and then say you are the Christ . Rather many that shall come in the name of Jesus and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, but shall deceive many. That's the natural resolution of the grammar there at least, isn't it?

I think that is also in better agreement with what Jesus was saying. Just because someone comes in his name does not mean he is trustworthy. Just because someone says that Jesus is the Christ doesn't mean that he won't be deceiving the masses.