The time has come...

Idolater

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If a woman wants an abortion who is the government to tell her how she is to manage her own body? If an American does not want to take the risky covid shot who can be justified to force that Amerian to take the shot against his will? If the only ones at risk from the unvaccinated are the unvaccinated then stop trying to force the unvaccinated to take the shot to protect others just like themselves.
We need to treat our other rights as aggressively liberally, as we treat the legal right to abortion.

I mean, except in Texas. In Texas they're treating the legal right to abortion like how gun-controllers treat the right to bear arms.

And on the other hand:
 
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JudgeRightly

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If a woman wants an abortion who is the government to tell her how she is to manage her own body?

Considering that the body inside her body is NOT her body, and abortion is murder, the government has EVERY right to forbid her from getting an abortion.

If an American does not want to take the risky covid shot who can be justified to force that Amerian to take the shot against his will?

Where is anyone being tied down and the virus being injected into people's bodies against their will?

People who get the vaccine do so out of fear, be it fear of contracting the virus, or fear of losing their job, losing contact with friends and family, or losing the ability to participate freely in society.

But I have yet to see anyone actually forced to take the vaccine, insofar as they completely oppose getting it yet it is injected into their bodies without their consent.

If the only ones at risk from the unvaccinated are the unvaccinated then stop trying to force the unvaccinated to take the shot to protect others just like themselves.

Agreed.
 

JudgeRightly

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Saying it doesn't make it so.

Which is why it's not just me saying it. It's God:


Regrettably, in this case.

You need to repent of your wickedness. It's a crime in God's eyes to kill the unborn, not a right.
 

marke

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Considering that the body inside her body is NOT her body, and abortion is murder, the government has EVERY right to forbid her from getting an abortion.



Where is anyone being tied down and the virus being injected into people's bodies against their will?

People who get the vaccine do so out of fear, be it fear of contracting the virus, or fear of losing their job, losing contact with friends and family, or losing the ability to participate freely in society.

But I have yet to see anyone actually forced to take the vaccine, insofar as they completely oppose getting it yet it is injected into their bodies without their consent.



Agreed.
Some may think the mayor of NYC is not forcing people to get the covid shot but he is banning anyone from doing business in NYC without taking the shot. Some may think the federal government is not forcing its employees to get the shot but they are firing those who don't. Some may think schools are not forcing students to get the shot but they are kicking unvaccinated students out. I call that force.
 

Right Divider

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Some may think the mayor of NYC is not forcing people to get the covid shot but he is banning anyone from doing business in NYC without taking the shot. Some may think the federal government is not forcing its employees to get the shot but they are firing those who don't. Some may think schools are not forcing students to get the shot but they are kicking unvaccinated students out. I call that force.
If it's not force... it's at least extreme coercion.
 

ffreeloader

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Yes, coercion similar to the way members of Jim Jones's cult were forced to drink the Koolaid
What's being done is no different than what socialist/communist governments world wide have used. If someone dosen't obey they become a non-person in those countries. All employment is government controlled so it becomes no work, no eat, no place to live for non-persons. If the individual stands up to that the gulags are the next step.
 

Idolater

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Which is why it's not just me saying it. It's God:

A legal right is distinguished from other types of rights, like probably the ones you're thinking of, human or universal or natural rights.

Legal rights are codified in laws. There was a legal right to own slaves in this country not long ago, it wasn't a human right, and it shouldn't have been a legal right either.

Same with abortion. And at the very least we should be treating all our rights equally, not favoring the right to abortion, and infringing the right to bear arms, for example.
You need to repent of your wickedness. It's a crime in God's eyes to kill the unborn, not a right.
And what wickedness are you accusing me of now?
 

JudgeRightly

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A legal right is distinguished from other types of rights, like probably the ones you're thinking of, human or universal or natural rights.

Every human has the God-given right to life, despite what any law says.

God said "do not murder."

Therefore, killing the innocent is wrong. That by default includes the child in the womb.

There was a legal right to own slaves in this country not long ago, it wasn't a human right, and it shouldn't have been a legal right either.

Red herring. The slavery in this country was based off the crime of kidnapping, which according to God is worthy of the death penalty.

Some slavery, however, is just, such as punishment for crime.

But that's besides the point, as the topic is abortion, not slavery.

Same with abortion. And at the very least we should be treating all our rights equally, not favoring the right to abortion,

Again, no such thing, as per the above link.

There is no "right to kill the unborn," because the unborn are innocent, and therefore killing them would be murder.

That you continue to defend abortion is disgusting and deplorable.

and infringing the right to bear arms, for example.

How about "do not murder"? Does that not count?

And what wickedness are you accusing me of now?

Defending child-killing. Stop it.
 

JudgeRightly

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I'm not doing that.

Then it should be easy for you to say the following:

"I, Idolater, condemn the killing of innocent babies in the womb under any circumstance, with no exceptions, and affirm that there is no such thing as a 'right to abortion.'"

If you can't say that much, Idolater, then your above statement is a lie, because you ARE defending abortion to any extent.

Don't lie, Idolater. Don't defend murder, otherwise you are just as guilty of it, as it makes you an accomplice to it.
 

ffreeloader

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A legal right is distinguished from other types of rights, like probably the ones you're thinking of, human or universal or natural rights.

Legal rights are codified in laws. There was a legal right to own slaves in this country not long ago, it wasn't a human right, and it shouldn't have been a legal right either.

Same with abortion. And at the very least we should be treating all our rights equally, not favoring the right to abortion, and infringing the right to bear arms, for example.

And what wickedness are you accusing me of now?
Not by God. In God's kingdom, what is legal is moral, and what is illegal is immoral. Furthermore God's standards are THE standards. Go ahead and tell us God's standards are not to be the standards for Christians. Just remember Jesus said in Luke 17:20,21 that God's kingdom doesn't come by observation, but is within us.
 

Right Divider

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Not by God. In God's kingdom, what is legal is moral, and what is illegal is immoral. Furthermore God's standards are THE standards. Go ahead and tell us God's standards are not to be the standards for Christians. Just remember Jesus said in Luke 17:20,21 that God's kingdom doesn't come by observation, but is within us.
This is a very misunderstood verse. I know that you'll get angry with me for trying to explain it, but I'll try anyway.

The YOU in Luke 17:21 is plural and does not include members of the body of Christ. Jesus was NOT saying that the kingdom of God was within unbelieving Pharisees (see verse 20). Jesus was saying that the KING was right in their midst. Jesus told the chief priests and elders this:
Mat 21:43 KJV Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
The "kingdom of God" is not just something inside of a person.
 

Idolater

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Not by God. In God's kingdom, what is legal is moral, and what is illegal is immoral. Furthermore God's standards are THE standards. Go ahead and tell us God's standards are not to be the standards for Christians. Just remember Jesus said in Luke 17:20,21 that God's kingdom doesn't come by observation, but is within us.
What God did not give us

God didn't tell us what rights we have in Scripture. The only mention of rights are the ones that Paul claimed for himself as a citizen of Rome, these were rights, they were legal rights, and they were political rights.

(The seed of the idea of inalienable rights didn't appear until the Romans had to decide how to handle foreigners, they had laws and rights for Roman citizens, and they had different sets for other people from other lands. The idea that people have some rights even if they're not a citizen doesn't appear in Scripture, not as such.)

What God gave us

God did give us laws, explicitly in the Old Testament, and there is a distinct echo of many of these laws in the New Testament, particularly with Paul, who constantly condemned both idolatry (sacrificing to false gods /devils /demons) and perversion (the Greek 'porneia'), among many other vices, which were both also condemned in God's written laws of the OT, just for example.

And He gave us a conscience.

What do we do

With these things we are to be good stewards, since He did not specifically tell us that people have inalienable rights.

We have theorized ever since as to the best choices to make, as individuals, and as polities (basically 'nations').

The theory that I hold is called 'liberalism', and I specifically interpret liberalism as founded upon individual human rights. It means that whatever flowery language various liberal thinkers might have used to describe the theory, I don't hold to that language, I only hold to the rights themselves.

God gave us our inalienable rights

Atheists and Catholics alike can agree on which rights we have, even if we differ about why we have them, where they came from (are they in our DNA?), or what they're for. And we can agree how to treat them. We all agree that certain individual rights are absolute and that it is never justified in violating them, for example violent rape, murder, and uncoerced perjury is always condemned in very many of our modern countries. These laws protect our rights against such things being done to us.

What is a legal right

Legal rights are a matter of legal fact. Statutes and case law recognizes rights in the same way, no matter whether they are genuine human rights, or if they are created rights, like voting. Rights are 'holes' in the law. They are where our government is not permitted to interfere. When a 'hole' is filled in, then the right disappears as a legal fact.

Legal rights do not necessarily correspond to our inalienable rights. As a liberal, I would that this were always the case, but the present and history demonstrates that we have failed.

Legal theory

We all have a legal theory, it is how we understand the law. The simplest theories aren't even examined or consciously thought about, they are like 'obey the law' and that's the end of it. The idea that it might be moral to break the law never occurs to them.

Our justices all have legal theories too. Answering questions like what is the law, and what should the law be?

Moral theory

We all have moral theories as well, and our moral theory interacts with our legal theory. As far as I'm concerned, my political moral theory (contrasted with my ethics) is also liberalism, which characterizes any unjustified invasion against anybody's rights as immoral. This filters up to my legal theory, which is that all our laws should be in the service of protecting and defending all of our inalienable rights.

Ethics

Ethical theory is very personal, though not private. We all pursue things, and the pursuit itself shows our values. Our values are a matter of ethics.

In contrast to the vices I mentioned above, the corresponding values would be Christian piety and chastity.

Our theory of ethics is how we understand all of the above, all integrated together. It includes every last thing that we do, and there is no limit to its reach. Part of my moral theory is that imposing your ethics upon someone else violates their rights. This is called the right to the pursuit of happiness, and as far as I'm concerned that's the right to your own ethics, it's the right to ethical independence.

Religion

Religion figures into this two ways. One is that religion is the source of our faith, whether that faith is in God, or in something else. And the other, is that religion concerns sacrifices.

The latter is informed, I admit, by my own religion. People don't 'do' altars anymore, not like they did in Paul's day, nor in Muhammad's (SAW). That kind of sacrificing is a thing of the past, but what was true then is still true today, in that the most valuable sacrifice that people can offer, is their time and work; themselves; their lives.

When people get their ethics from religion, they sacrifice to their god, whether or not they believe in God or in science or some other entity. As they pursue their values, they are sacrificing to their god.

Values

As said, values are demonstrable by examining our pursuits. We always pursue our values, or put another way, we always pursue what is valuable to us. Whatever it is that we are actually pursuing is what we actually value, and this is even true in the face of our thinking otherwise.

Plenty of times, we may think we value one thing, but our actions belie that we actually value something else.

I value Jesus
 

marke

Well-known member
What's being done is no different than what socialist/communist governments world wide have used. If someone dosen't obey they become a non-person in those countries. All employment is government controlled so it becomes no work, no eat, no place to live for non-persons. If the individual stands up to that the gulags are the next step.
De Blasio just announced that people who do not get the covid shot will not be allowed to buy or sell in his city. That's what I hate about tinpot democrat fascist dictators - they think they own the city and nobody can tell them what to do.
 

Clete

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If a woman wants an abortion who is the government to tell her how she is to manage her own body?
It's not her body that's being harmed. A woman who gets an abortion is guilty of murder.

Every day you take yet another step toward convincing me that you're not even a Christian. No Christian could even let such a question escape his lips in a one on one conversation, never mind be posted on the internet for the whole world to see.

If an American does not want to take the risky covid shot who can be justified to force that Amerian to take the shot against his will?
No one.

If the only ones at risk from the unvaccinated are the unvaccinated then stop trying to force the unvaccinated to take the shot to protect others just like themselves.
Who here has ever argued otherwise?
 

marke

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It's not her body that's being harmed. A woman who gets an abortion is guilty of murder.

Every day you take yet another step toward convincing me that you're not even a Christian. No Christian could even let such a question escape his lips in a one on one conversation, never mind be posted on the internet for the whole world to see.


No one.


Who here has ever argued otherwise?
Sadly, lost politicians not only believe murdering babies is not wrong, but they also do everything they can to force acceptance of the bloody practice on the whole world. Lost politicians also see nothing wrong with persecuting anyone who disagrees with their mob-think false ideologies and practices no matter how wrong or devastating those policies or edicts are.
 
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