musterion
Well-known member
Explain how He can do it and not lie.
The new evangelism (gospel)
- Thread starter Truster
- Start date
Explain how He can do it and not lie.
Titus 1:2
Thanks for the question. Just reading that verse has caused my soul* to rejoice...
soul* not my body
musterion
Well-known member
You're not answering the question of how he can hold unbelievers responsible for unbelief when he chose not to give them the life that would enable them to believe. Your Doctrine makes him a liar.
musterion
Well-known member
If a human judge condemned someone for doing something that he knows was completely beyond their control, and in fact the person didn't even know why they did it, people would say that judge has serious problems and the decision is unjust.
What you're saying God does is far worse than that and makes you a slanderer.
What you're saying God does is far worse than that and makes you a slanderer.
The French once had a defence for murder. If it could be proved that it was beyond the control of a man. I say man, because the victim was usually a woman. It was called a crime of passion. "Crime de la passion" I add the French because the English translation does not convey what the French does. It is correctly translated as "A crime of the passion".
Slander is the spoken word and libel the written word.
Elohim is just in all that He has decreed and works. He is not a human judge.
It seems that you question the Sovereign right of the Eternal Almighty to work all things according to His good pleasure. That you are setting a standard for Him and that His actions must conform to what man can understand and accept.
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
God can and does hold man accountable for their unbelief. That God commands what man ought to do, in no way implies man can do what he is commanded to do. Again, ought does not imply can. Such a humanistic notion is contrary to Scripture's teachings about the moral ability of fallen man. Such a view robs God of His prerogative to dispose of His creatures as He sees fit to do. God is Creator, we are the created. Your continued attempts to bridge that gap and elevate mankind Godward will always run contrary to what Scripture teaches us about the sovereignty of God.
If God wants to save these men who cannot do what they ought to do, we find from Scripture that He will grant them the ability to actually do what He commands them to do, e.g., Eze. 36:26. That God does not do so for each and every person in Adam should be of no concern to us. All mankind in the loins of Adam had their chance in Adam's probation in the Garden as the Federal Representative of us all. Adam failed. From that failure Adam's sin is imputed to all his progeny by ordinary generation. All are born sinners, sinning because they are sinners, adjudged as guilty.
Man's notions about what is just are but shadows of how God knows justice. God is the archetype. We are the ectype. Our knowledge is ectypal—knowledge known as humans can know knowledge—not archetypal—knowledge only God knows or as only God can know it. In other words, what we know is not exactly what God knows, nor exactly how God knows it. Of course God knows what we know, but we don't know what He knows nor do we know it the way He knows it.
Our ectypal knowledge is true, but analogical to what God knows. God speaks univocally, and sadly, sinful persons frequently speak equivocally, rather than analogically (thinking God's thoughts after him). The ectypal knowledge of God that is granted to creatures by revelation is not the absolute self-knowledge of God but the knowledge of God as it has been accommodated to and made fit for the finite consciousness—hence anthropomorphized.
We cannot know things exactly as God knows them, so using "univocal" when describing our knowledge is simply erroneous.
For example.
God is a person.
Is God exactly a person as we are? No.
The predicate "person" does not mean the same exact thing to God and man. It is not univocal. God is a person here in an analogical sense, just as Scripture describes Him.
God has condescended to man in Scripture, and uses human analogies that hold our hands to understand his revelation. This analogical language in all of Scripture uses correct analogies, for God chose them and it is God's speech in human language, but they are not univocal descriptions. Claims to univocity usually end up in rationalism, holding that we possess autonomous knowledge, and even denial of mystery in Scripture. All of Scripture is analogical, as a necessary aspect of the Creator-created distinction. God is not greater than man in degree only. God is in a whole separate category and what God knows about himself and anything else is qualitatively (and quantitatively, of course) different from what we know.
Unfortunately, modern era proponents that argue against analogy, often while misunderstanding the nature of the topic. For example, Pinnock and Sanders, immediately come to mind, both of whom have argued at one point or another that we can know things univocally from Scripture. This sort of thinking gives rise to the humanistic views we see way too often about God, especially in open theism, of which Pinnock and Boyd are held up as examples. Apparently, some are unwilling to accept a plain didactic that God is above, we are below, and God's thoughts are not our thoughts. We of orthodox Christendom understand this ontological divide between the Creator and the created, making a clear distinction in God's and our knowledge, archetypal-ectypal, as an epistemological ground.
"Oh God, grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire."
AMR
Last edited:
I worship in spirit and in truth.
I do have what the world deems to be an annoying habit. That is not giving what is holy to dogs. I am then accused of not engaging in discussions, but truth is not for discussions or arguments. I just speak the truth and it will not, ever, return void.
musterion
Well-known member
You worship a lying idol that damns people for not doing what it (your idol) chose not to enable them to do.
musterion
Well-known member
Analogy:
"Hey, all you quadriplegics. Get up out of those beds, walk over here and reach out your hands and I'll give you a cure that will make you one hundred percent whole, absolutely free.
"If you don't, I'm going to tell everybody you jerks refused my gift and shoot you all in the head."
That's your 'god.'
"Hey, all you quadriplegics. Get up out of those beds, walk over here and reach out your hands and I'll give you a cure that will make you one hundred percent whole, absolutely free.
"If you don't, I'm going to tell everybody you jerks refused my gift and shoot you all in the head."
That's your 'god.'
You must have needed psychiatric support when you got to Genesis 6:7,8 and you still haven't recovered.
That hits like a hammer... Let's search scripture.
Luke 17:5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. 7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”
Ten Lepers Cleansed
11 Now it happened as He went to Jerusalem that He passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee. 12 Then as He entered a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off. 13 And they lifted up their voices and said, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!”
14 So when He saw them, He said to them, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And so it was that as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, returned, and with a loud voice glorified God, 16 and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks. And he was a Samaritan.
17 So Jesus answered and said, “Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? 18 Were there not any found who returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?” 19 And He said to him, “Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well.”
6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. 7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”
Ten Lepers Cleansed
11 Now it happened as He went to Jerusalem that He passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee. 12 Then as He entered a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off. 13 And they lifted up their voices and said, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!”
14 So when He saw them, He said to them, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And so it was that as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, returned, and with a loud voice glorified God, 16 and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks. And he was a Samaritan.
17 So Jesus answered and said, “Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? 18 Were there not any found who returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?” 19 And He said to him, “Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well.”
It's interesting that Jesus says "Your Faith". He could have said... "The Faith I gave you".
It appears the Lepers were made whole by their God enabled "Choice" to place their "Faith" in Jesus. Jesus says "your faith" and exemplifies the one leper that returned and "Thanked Him".
Musty...It appears the Lepers were made whole by their God enabled "Choice" to place their "Faith" in Jesus. Jesus says "your faith" and exemplifies the one leper that returned and "Thanked Him".
When you're right your right. It appears scripture agrees with you. infact... I'm certain there were many lepers that "chose" to not come to Jesus... but... it was their "choice"... not God's doing.
In deeper fact... the only reason the other lepers wouldn't have sought Jesus is kind of like "this".
2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
It seems that to say GOD blinds people to faith is attributing the wrong (g)od to the matter.
:e4e:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
But this is about choice. Like this...
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, ...
In other words... people can choose pride in self, or humility in Christ. To take "choice" out of the matter is to say God builds rigged decks.
Note that Satan "Blinds"... not God. This is not a positive attribute to place in God's lap.