The Late Great Urantia Revelation

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Caino

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Jesus visits the temple at age 13 and had a few questions in his mind:

1. What really exists in the holy of holies, behind the veil?

2. Why should mothers in Israel be segregated from the male temple worshipers?

3. If God is a father who loves his children, why all this slaughter of animals to gain divine favor—has the teaching of Moses been misunderstood?

4. Since the temple is dedicated to the worship of the Father in heaven, is it consistent to permit the presence of those who engage in secular barter and trade?


5. Is the expected Messiah to become a temporal prince to sit on the throne of David, or is he to function as the light of life in the establishment of a spiritual kingdom?


"Though many of the temple rituals very touchingly impressed his sense of the beautiful and the symbolic, he was always disappointed by the explanation of the real meanings of these ceremonies which his parents would offer in answer to his many searching inquiries. Jesus simply would not accept explanations of worship and religious devotion which involved belief in the wrath of God or the anger of the Almighty. In further discussion of these questions, after the conclusion of the temple visit, when his father became mildly insistent that he acknowledge acceptance of the orthodox Jewish beliefs, Jesus turned suddenly upon his parents and, looking appealingly into the eyes of his father, said: "My father, it cannot be true—the Father in heaven cannot so regard his erring children on earth. The heavenly Father cannot love his children less than you love me. And I well know, no matter what unwise thing I might do, you would never pour out wrath upon me nor vent anger against me. If you, my earthly father, possess such human reflections of the Divine, how much more must the heavenly Father be filled with goodness and overflowing with mercy. I refuse to believe that my Father in heaven loves me less than my father on earth."


http://www.truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=1377




Caino
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
living principles............

living principles............

Jesus visits the temple at age 13 and had a few questions in his mind:

1. What really exists in the holy of holies, behind the veil?

2. Why should mothers in Israel be segregated from the male temple worshipers?

3. If God is a father who loves his children, why all this slaughter of animals to gain divine favor—has the teaching of Moses been misunderstood?

4. Since the temple is dedicated to the worship of the Father in heaven, is it consistent to permit the presence of those who engage in secular barter and trade?


5. Is the expected Messiah to become a temporal prince to sit on the throne of David, or is he to function as the light of life in the establishment of a spiritual kingdom?


"Though many of the temple rituals very touchingly impressed his sense of the beautiful and the symbolic, he was always disappointed by the explanation of the real meanings of these ceremonies which his parents would offer in answer to his many searching inquiries. Jesus simply would not accept explanations of worship and religious devotion which involved belief in the wrath of God or the anger of the Almighty. In further discussion of these questions, after the conclusion of the temple visit, when his father became mildly insistent that he acknowledge acceptance of the orthodox Jewish beliefs, Jesus turned suddenly upon his parents and, looking appealingly into the eyes of his father, said: "My father, it cannot be true—the Father in heaven cannot so regard his erring children on earth. The heavenly Father cannot love his children less than you love me. And I well know, no matter what unwise thing I might do, you would never pour out wrath upon me nor vent anger against me. If you, my earthly father, possess such human reflections of the Divine, how much more must the heavenly Father be filled with goodness and overflowing with mercy. I refuse to believe that my Father in heaven loves me less than my father on earth."


http://www.truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=1377




Caino


Perhaps the greatest revelation of Jesus was that 'God' is a gracious, loving Heavenly Father, although the concept of 'God' as a father was hinted at in the OT, it was brought to light by Jesus in a more endearing relational sense.

While the idea of 'blood sacrifice' is appalling to some of us, it is nevertheless believed to be reinstated when the third temple is rebuilt. I wonder how this will be incorporated in the end time assumptions when the Jewish Messiah is to return to Jerusalem and set up his rule,...will he continue to sanction animal sacrifice and their efficacy? - this presents conflict with some aspects of Christian theology, as well as UB theology...since the return of Christ-Michael (Jesus) will not include or sanction such primitive beliefs, but will establish and incorporate living spiritual ideals and principles to foster the brotherhood of all men, under the Fatherhood of God. - the kingdom therefore will be a living community of faith-sons, inspired, infused and led by the Spirit. - considering these various eschatologies is interesting as we look towards the dawning of a new era.

Urantia Book websites Portal


pj
 

Caino

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"In further answer to Peter's question, Jesus said: "Why do you still look for the Son of Man to sit upon the throne of David and expect that the material dreams of the Jews will be fulfilled? Have I not told you all these years that my kingdom is not of this world? The things which you now look down upon are coming to an end, but this will be a new beginning out of which the gospel of the kingdom will go to all the world and this salvation will spread to all peoples. And when the kingdom shall have come to its full fruition, be assured that the Father in heaven will not fail to visit you with an enlarged revelation of truth and an enhanced demonstration of righteousness, even as he has already bestowed upon this world him who became the prince of darkness, and then Adam, who was followed by Melchizedek, and in these days, the Son of Man. And so will my Father continue to manifest his mercy and show forth his love, even to this dark and evil world. So also will I, after my Father has invested me with all power and authority, continue to follow your fortunes and to guide in the affairs of the kingdom by the presence of my spirit, who shall shortly be poured out upon all flesh. Even though I shall thus be present with you in spirit, I also promise that I will sometime return to this world, where I have lived this life in the flesh and achieved the experience of simultaneously revealing God to man and leading man to God. Very soon must I leave you and take up the work the Father has intrusted to my hands, but be of good courage, for I will sometime return. In the meantime, my Spirit of the Truth of a universe shall comfort and guide you."



"But the times of the reappearing of the Son of Man are known only in the councils of Paradise; not even the angels of heaven know when this will occur. However, you should understand that, when this gospel of the kingdom shall have been proclaimed to all the world for the salvation of all peoples, and when the fullness of the age has come to pass, the Father will send you another dispensational bestowal, or else the Son of Man will return to adjudge the age."






THE RETURN OF MICHAEL​

176:4.1 Of all the Master's teachings no one phase has been so misunderstood as his promise sometime to come back in person to this world. It is not strange that Michael should be interested in sometime returning to the planet whereon he experienced his seventh and last bestowal as a mortal of the realm. It is only natural to believe that Jesus of Nazareth, now sovereign ruler of a vast universe, would be interested in coming back, not only once but even many times, to the world whereon he lived such a unique life and finally won for himself the Father's unlimited bestowal of universe power and authority. Urantia will eternally be one of the seven nativity spheres of Michael in the winning of universe sovereignty.

176:4.2 Jesus did, on numerous occasions and to many individuals, declare his intention of returning to this world. As his followers awakened to the fact that their Master was not going to function as a temporal deliverer, and as they listened to his predictions of the overthrow of Jerusalem and the downfall of the Jewish nation, they most naturally began to associate his promised return with these catastrophic events. But when the Roman armies leveled the walls of Jerusalem, destroyed the temple, and dispersed the Judean Jews, and still the Master did not reveal himself in power and glory, his followers began the formulation of that belief which eventually associated the second coming of Christ with the end of the age, even with the end of the world.

176:4.3 Jesus promised to do two things after he had ascended to the Father, and after all power in heaven and on earth had been placed in his hands. He promised, first, to send into the world, and in his stead, another teacher, the Spirit of Truth; and this he did on the day of Pentecost. Second, he most certainly promised his followers that he would sometime personally return to this world. But he did not say how, where, or when he would revisit this planet of his bestowal experience in the flesh. On one occasion he intimated that, whereas the eye of flesh had beheld him when he lived here in the flesh, on his return (at least on one of his possible visits) he would be discerned only by the eye of spiritual faith.

176:4.4 Many of us are inclined to believe that Jesus will return to Urantia many times during the ages to come. We do not have his specific promise to make these plural visits, but it seems most probable that he who carries among his universe titles that of Planetary Prince of Urantia will many times visit the world whose conquest conferred such a unique title upon him.

176:4.5 We most positively believe that Michael will again come in person to Urantia, but we have not the slightest idea as to when or in what manner he may choose to come. Will his second advent on earth be timed to occur in connection with the terminal judgment of this present age, either with or without the associated appearance of a Magisterial Son? Will he come in connection with the termination of some subsequent Urantian age? Will he come unannounced and as an isolated event? We do not know. Only one thing we are certain of, that is, when he does return, all the world will likely know about it, for he must come as the supreme ruler of a universe and not as the obscure babe of Bethlehem. But if every eye is to behold him, and if only spiritual eyes are to discern his presence, then must his advent be long deferred.

176:4.6 You would do well, therefore, to disassociate the Master's personal return to earth from any and all set events or settled epochs. We are sure of only one thing: He has promised to come back. We have no idea as to when he will fulfill this promise or in what connection. As far as we know, he may appear on earth any day, and he may not come until age after age has passed and been duly adjudicated by his associated Sons of the Paradise corps.

176:4.7 The second advent of Michael on earth is an event of tremendous sentimental value to both midwayers and humans; but otherwise it is of no immediate moment to midwayers and of no more practical importance to human beings than the common event of natural death, which so suddenly precipitates mortal man into the immediate grasp of that succession of universe events which leads directly to the presence of this same Jesus, the sovereign ruler of our universe. The children of light are all destined to see him, and it is of no serious concern whether we go to him or whether he should chance first to come to us. Be you therefore ever ready to welcome him on earth as he stands ready to welcome you in heaven. We confidently look for his glorious appearing, even for repeated comings, but we are wholly ignorant as to how, when, or in what connection he is destined to appear.



Caino
 

Caino

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The apostle John and the "book of revelation."


JOHN ZEBEDEE

139:4.1 When he became an apostle, John was twenty-four years old and was the youngest of the twelve. He was unmarried and lived with his parents at Bethsaida; he was a fisherman and worked with his brother James in partnership with Andrew and Peter. Both before and after becoming an apostle, John functioned as the personal agent of Jesus in dealing with the Master's family, and he continued to bear this responsibility as long as Mary the mother of Jesus lived.

139:4.2 Since John was the youngest of the twelve and so closely associated with Jesus in his family affairs, he was very dear to the Master, but it cannot be truthfully said that he was "the disciple whom Jesus loved." You would hardly suspect such a magnanimous personality as Jesus to be guilty of showing favoritism, of loving one of his apostles more than the others. The fact that John was one of the three personal aides of Jesus lent further color to this mistaken idea, not to mention that John, along with his brother James, had known Jesus longer than the others.

139:4.3 Peter, James, and John were assigned as personal aides to Jesus soon after they became apostles. Shortly after the selection of the twelve and at the time Jesus appointed Andrew to act as director of the group, he said to him: "And now I desire that you assign two or three of your associates to be with me and to remain by my side, to comfort me and to minister to my daily needs." And Andrew thought best to select for this special duty the next three first-chosen apostles. He would have liked to volunteer for such a blessed service himself, but the Master had already given him his commission; so he immediately directed that Peter, James, and John attach themselves to Jesus.

139:4.4 John Zebedee had many lovely traits of character, but one which was not so lovely was his inordinate but usually well-concealed conceit. His long association with Jesus made many and great changes in his character. This conceit was greatly lessened, but after growing old and becoming more or less childish, this self-esteem reappeared to a certain extent, so that, when engaged in directing Nathan in the writing of the Gospel which now bears his name, the aged apostle did not hesitate repeatedly to refer to himself as the "disciple whom Jesus loved." In view of the fact that John came nearer to being the chum of Jesus than any other earth mortal, that he was his chosen personal representative in so many matters, it is not strange that he should have come to regard himself as the "disciple whom Jesus loved" since he most certainly knew he was the disciple whom Jesus so frequently trusted.

139:4.5 The strongest trait in John's character was his dependability; he was prompt and courageous, faithful and devoted. His greatest weakness was this characteristic conceit. He was the youngest member of his father's family and the youngest of the apostolic group. Perhaps he was just a bit spoiled; maybe he had been humored slightly too much. But the John of after years was a very different type of person than the self-admiring and arbitrary young man who joined the ranks of Jesus' apostles when he was twenty-four.

139:4.6 Those characteristics of Jesus which John most appreciated were the Master's love and unselfishness; these traits made such an impression on him that his whole subsequent life became dominated by the sentiment of love and brotherly devotion. He talked about love and wrote about love. This "son of thunder" became the "apostle of love"; and at Ephesus, when the aged bishop was no longer able to stand in the pulpit and preach but had to be carried to church in a chair, and when at the close of the service he was asked to say a few words to the believers, for years his only utterance was, "My little children, love one another."

139:4.7 John was a man of few words except when his temper was aroused. He thought much but said little. As he grew older, his temper became more subdued, better controlled, but he never overcame his disinclination to talk; he never fully mastered this reticence. But he was gifted with a remarkable and creative imagination.

139:4.8 There was another side to John that one would not expect to find in this quiet and introspective type. He was somewhat bigoted and inordinately intolerant. In this respect he and James were much alike— they both wanted to call down fire from heaven on the heads of the disrespectful Samaritans. When John encountered some strangers teaching in Jesus' name, he promptly forbade them. But he was not the only one of the twelve who was tainted with this kind of self-esteem and superiority consciousness.

139:4.9 John's life was tremendously influenced by the sight of Jesus' going about without a home as he knew how faithfully he had made provision for the care of his mother and family. John also deeply sympathized with Jesus because of his family's failure to understand him, being aware that they were gradually withdrawing from him. This entire situation, together with Jesus' ever deferring his slightest wish to the will of the Father in heaven and his daily life of implicit trust, made such a profound impression on John that it produced marked and permanent changes in his character, changes which manifested themselves throughout his entire subsequent life.

139:4.10 John had a cool and daring courage which few of the other apostles possessed. He was the one apostle who followed right along with Jesus the night of his arrest and dared to accompany his Master into the very jaws of death. He was present and near at hand right up to the last earthly hour and was found faithfully carrying out his trust with regard to Jesus' mother and ready to receive such additional instructions as might be given during the last moments of the Master's mortal existence. One thing is certain, John was thoroughly dependable. John usually sat on Jesus' right hand when the twelve were at meat. He was the first of the twelve really and fully to believe in the resurrection, and he was the first to recognize the Master when he came to them on the seashore after his resurrection.

139:4.11 This son of Zebedee was very closely associated with Peter in the early activities of the Christian movement, becoming one of the chief supporters of the Jerusalem church. He was the right-hand support of Peter on the day of Pentecost.

139:4.12 Several years after the martyrdom of James, John married his brother's widow. The last twenty years of his life he was cared for by a loving granddaughter.

139:4.13 John was in prison several times and was banished to the Isle of Patmos for a period of four years until another emperor came to power in Rome. Had not John been tactful and sagacious, he would undoubtedly have been killed as was his more outspoken brother James. As the years passed, John, together with James the Lord's brother, learned to practice wise conciliation when they appeared before the civil magistrates. They found that a "soft answer turns away wrath." They also learned to represent the church as a "spiritual brotherhood devoted to the social service of mankind" rather than as "the kingdom of heaven." They taught loving service rather than ruling power— kingdom and king.

139:4.14 When in temporary exile on Patmos, John wrote the Book of Revelation, which you now have in greatly abridged and distorted form. This Book of Revelation contains the surviving fragments of a great revelation, large portions of which were lost, other portions of which were removed, subsequent to John's writing. It is preserved in only fragmentary and adulterated form.

139:4.15 John traveled much, labored incessantly, and after becoming bishop of the Asia churches, settled down at Ephesus. He directed his associate, Nathan, in the writing of the so-called "Gospel according to John," at Ephesus, when he was ninety-nine years old. Of all the twelve apostles, John Zebedee eventually became the outstanding theologian. He died a natural death at Ephesus in A.D. 103 when he was one hundred and one years of age.

UB1955




Caino
 

Paulos

New member
While the idea of 'blood sacrifice' is appalling to some of us, it is nevertheless believed to be reinstated when the third temple is rebuilt. I wonder how this will be incorporated in the end time assumptions when the Jewish Messiah is to return to Jerusalem and set up his rule,...will he continue to sanction animal sacrifice and their efficacy? - this presents conflict with some aspects of Christian theology, as well as UB theology...since the return of Christ-Michael (Jesus) will not include or sanction such primitive beliefs, but will establish and incorporate living spiritual ideals and principles to foster the brotherhood of all men, under the Fatherhood of God.

Re-instituting animal sacrifices, even as a memorial, would be an affront to the finished work of Christ on the cross. Hebrews 10:3 states that animal sacrifices call sin into remembrance, so why would animal sacrifices be instituted during the Millennium as a memorial for sins that have already been remitted?

The book of Hebrews tells us the following things:

1) God took no pleasure in burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin (Heb 10:8).

2) It is not even possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins (Heb 10:4).

3) Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins forever (Heb 10:12).

4) Those who are sanctified by Christ's one offering have been perfected forever (Heb 10:14).

5) Animal sacrifices call sin into remembrance (Heb 10:3).

6) But the worshipers, once purged, have no more conscience of sins (Heb 10:2).

7) Therefore, no more offerings for sins will ever be made (Heb 10:18).​

According to Hebrews 10:3, the only thing animal sacrifices memorialize is sin; therefore, animal sacrifices cannot memorialize the finished work of Christ on the cross. Who would want to memorialize sin? The wounds of Christ are the only memorial of his sacrifice that anyone will ever need (John 20:20, 27).

Furthermore, the Bible is clear that vegetarianism was the original diet before the fall (Genesis 1:29). In fact, it wasn't until after the Deluge that God allowed meat-eating (Genesis 9:3). So not only will animal sacrifices be done away with, but so will meat-eating.

Isaiah 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.​
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
what sacrifice avails?

what sacrifice avails?

Re-instituting animal sacrifices, even as a memorial, would be an affront to the finished work of Christ on the cross. Hebrews 10:3 states that animal sacrifices call sin into remembrance, so why would animal sacrifices be instituted during the Millennium as a memorial for sins that have already been remitted?

The book of Hebrews tells us the following things:

1) God took no pleasure in burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin (Heb 10:8).

2) It is not even possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins (Heb 10:4).

3) Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins forever (Heb 10:12).

4) Those who are sanctified by Christ's one offering have been perfected forever (Heb 10:14).

5) Animal sacrifices call sin into remembrance (Heb 10:3).

6) But the worshipers, once purged, have no more conscience of sins (Heb 10:2).

7) Therefore, no more offerings for sins will ever be made (Heb 10:18).​

According to Hebrews 10:3, the only thing animal sacrifices memorialize is sin; therefore, animal sacrifices cannot memorialize the finished work of Christ on the cross. Who would want to memorialize sin? The wounds of Christ are the only memorial of his sacrifice that anyone will ever need (John 20:20, 27).

Furthermore, the Bible is clear that vegetarianism was the original diet before the fall (Genesis 1:29). In fact, it wasn't until after the Deluge that God allowed meat-eating (Genesis 9:3). So not only will animal sacrifices be done away with, but so will meat-eating.

Isaiah 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.​

Hi Paulos,

Indeed,...according to the writer of Hebrews :)

We've recently covered this in the 'Was James a Judaizer' thread Here. - also see my previous posts in that thread. The entire 'Judaizer' charge and phenomena includes the conversion from traditional Judaism into gentile forms of Christianity, mostly riding the coat-tails of Paul.

As you know, my views on 'blood-atonement' are fairly liberal, although mostly holding to a symbolic value, it remains to be seen if the actual physical act of animal sacrifice is sufficient to effect a change in the sinner's conscience at all, but this becomes a matter of faith and how one 'appropriates' the 'sacrifice' on an inward level (repentance), let alone whether the sacrifice of another 'man'(Jesus or anyone else) could effect atonement on behalf of others (violating the principle of self-responsibility).

Atonement without Blood

Its wonderful to believe that 'Jesus did it all', but again this violates certain laws of personal responsibility and karmic compensation, which only a soul can effect and balance for himself, although of course...the grace given thru a mediator, messiah, avatar, bodhisattva, prophet....can assist us towards the goal.

If the temple is rebuilt and animal sacrifices per original Mosaic custom and priestly practice is reinstated, we can only speculate on its efficacy or purpose in the plan of God in the dispensations to come. Also, I'm more for vegetarianism and less brutality and killing of animals, at least allowing for one's diet to be mostly vegetarian. Eastern religions are typically oriented to such, as well as the Essenes, and others who recognized the health-benefits of such, being eco-friendly and humane.

Ultimately...the true sacrifice 'God' accepts is the surrender of one's entire being to the Spirit, a broken heart and contrite spirit, the disposition of true repentance and willingness to do God's will.


pj
 

Caino

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There has been much discussion about the Book of Revelation as of late with all the "end times" consideration. The Urantia Book reveals that in fact there was a "great revelation" to John but that that book did not survive in tact. I does however contain some interesting fragments.

The BOR was the last and most controversial books to be added to the cannon and subsequently part of what the church deems "the word of God" in order to derive it's presumed "authority."


"The English Biblical scholar, Robert Henry Charles (1855–1931), reasoned on internal textual grounds that the book was edited by someone who spoke no Hebrew and who wished to promote a different theology to John's. As a result, everything after 20:3, he claims, has been left in a haphazard state with no attempt to structure it logically. Furthermore, he says, the story of the defeat of the ten kingdoms has been deleted and replaced by 19:9-10.[17] John's theology of chastity has been replaced by the editor's theology of outright celibacy, which makes little sense when John's true church is symbolised as a bride of the Lamb. Most importantly, the editor has completely rewritten John's theology of the Millennium which is "emptied of all significance".[18]
Source wiki


"When in temporary exile on Patmos, John wrote the Book of Revelation, which you now have in greatly abridged and distorted form. This Book of Revelation contains the surviving fragments of a great revelation, large portions of which were lost, other portions of which were removed, subsequent to John’s writing. It is preserved in only fragmentary and adulterated form." UB1955​


THE FOUR AND TWENTY COUNSELORS

45:4.1 At the center of the seven angelic residential circles on Jerusem is located the headquarters of the Urantia advisory council, the four and twenty counselors. John the Revelator called them the four and twenty elders: "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats, and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment." The throne in the center of this group is the judgment seat of the presiding archangel, the throne of the resurrection roll call of mercy and justice for all Satania. This judgment seat has always been on Jerusem, but the twenty-four surrounding seats were placed in position no more than nineteen hundred years ago, soon after Christ Michael was elevated to the full sovereignty of Nebadon. These four and twenty counselors are his personal agents on Jerusem, and they have authority to represent the Master Son in all matters concerning the roll calls of Satania and in many other phases of the scheme of mortal ascension on the isolated worlds of the system. They are the designated agents for executing the special requests of Gabriel and the unusual mandates of Michael.

45:4.2 These twenty-four counselors have been recruited from the eight Urantia races, and the last of this group were assembled at the time of the resurrection roll call of Michael, nineteen hundred years ago. This Urantia advisory council is made up of the following members:

45:4.3 1. Onagar, the master mind of the pre-Planetary Prince age, who directed his fellows in the worship of "The Breath Giver."

45:4.4 2. Mansant, the great teacher of the post-Planetary Prince age on Urantia, who pointed his fellows to the veneration of "The Great Light."

45:4.5 3. Onamonalonton, a far-distant leader of the red man and the one who directed this race from the worship of many gods to the veneration of "The Great Spirit."

45:4.6 4. Orlandof, a prince of the blue men and their leader in the recognition of the divinity of "The Supreme Chief."

45:4.7 5. Porshunta, the oracle of the extinct orange race and the leader of this people in the worship of "The Great Teacher."

45:4.8 6. Singlangton, the first of the yellow men to teach and lead his people in the worship of "One Truth" instead of many. Thousands of years ago the yellow man knew of the one God.

45:4.9 7. Fantad, the deliverer of the green men from darkness and their leader in the worship of "The One Source of Life."

45:4.10 8. Orvonon, the enlightener of the indigo races and their leader in the onetime service of "The God of Gods."

45:4.11 9. Adam, the discredited but rehabilitated planetary father of Urantia, a Material Son of God who was relegated to the likeness of mortal flesh, but who survived and was subsequently elevated to this position by the decree of Michael.

45:4.12 10. Eve, the mother of the violet race of Urantia, who suffered the penalty of default with her mate and was also rehabilitated with him and assigned to serve with this group of mortal survivors.

45:4.13 11. Enoch, the first of the mortals of Urantia to fuse with the Thought Adjuster during the mortal life in the flesh.

45:4.14 12. Moses, the emancipator of a remnant of the submerged violet race and the instigator of the revival of the worship of the Universal Father under the name of "The God of Israel."

45:4.15 13. Elijah, a translated soul of brilliant spiritual achievement during the post-Material Son age.

45:4.16 14. Machiventa Melchizedek, the only Son of this order to bestow himself upon the Urantia races. While still numbered as a Melchizedek, he has become "forever a minister of the Most Highs," eternally assuming the assignment of service as a mortal ascender, having sojourned on Urantia in the likeness of mortal flesh at Salem in the days of Abraham. This Melchizedek has latterly been proclaimed vicegerent Planetary Prince of Urantia with headquarters on Jerusem and authority to act in behalf of Michael, who is actually the Planetary Prince of the world whereon he experienced his terminal bestowal in human form. Notwithstanding this, Urantia is still supervised by successive resident governors general, members of the four and twenty counselors.

45:4.17 15. John the Baptist, the forerunner of Michael's mission on Urantia and, in the flesh, distant cousin of the Son of Man.

45:4.18 16. 1-2-3 the first, the leader of the loyal midway creatures in the service of Gabriel at the time of the Caligastia betrayal, elevated to this position by Michael soon after his entrance upon unconditioned sovereignty.

45:4.19 These selected personalities are exempt from the ascension regime for the time being, on Gabriel's request, and we have no idea how long they may serve in this capacity.

45:4.20 Seats numbers 17, 18, 19, and 20 are not permanently occupied. They are temporarily filled by the unanimous consent of the sixteen permanent members, being kept open for later assignment to ascending mortals from the present postbestowal Son age on Urantia.

45:4.21 Numbers 21, 22, 23, and 24 are likewise temporarily filled while being held in reserve for the great teachers of other and subsequent ages which undoubtedly will follow the present age. Eras of the Magisterial Sons and Teacher Sons and the ages of light and life are to be anticipated on Urantia, regardless of unexpected visitations of divine Sons which may or may not occur.



Caino
 

Caino

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More on the distorted fragments from Johns revelation.

"But it was of Salvington that John wrote: “And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices” — the universe broadcasts to the local systems. He also envisaged the directional control creatures of the local universe, the living compasses of the headquarters world. This directional control in Nebadon is maintained by the four control creatures of Salvington, who operate over the universe currents and are ably assisted by the first functioning mind-spirit, the adjutant of intuition, the spirit of “quick understanding.” But the description of these four creatures — called beasts — has been sadly marred; they are of unparalleled beauty and exquisite form."


Caino
 

Caino

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Where did the erroneous, primitive idea of "Hell" come from?

Hell as a concept arose in evolved religion, it is well nigh universal in various forms and depictions across most religions. It made its first appearance in the early concepts of primitive man.

The following are excerpts from the late great Urantia revelation on the origins of this terrible concept.


"Early man entertained no ideas of hell or future punishment. The savage looked upon the future life as just like this one, minus all ill luck. Later on, a separate destiny for good ghosts and bad ghosts—heaven and hell—was conceived. But since many primitive races believed that man entered the next life just as he left this one, they did not relish the idea of becoming old and decrepit. The aged much preferred to be killed before becoming too infirm......"

......."Almost every group had a different idea regarding the destiny of the ghost soul. The Greeks believed that weak men must have weak souls; so they invented Hades as a fit place for the reception of such anemic souls; these unrobust specimens were also supposed to have shorter shadows. The early Andites thought their ghosts returned to the ancestral homelands. The Chinese and Egyptians once believed that soul and body remained together. Among the Egyptians this led to careful tomb construction and efforts at body preservation. Even modern peoples seek to arrest the decay of the dead. The Hebrews conceived that a phantom replica of the individual went down to Sheol; it could not return to the land of the living. They did make that important advance in the doctrine of the evolution of the soul."


"The Jewish traditions of heaven and hell and the doctrine of devils as recorded in the Hebrew scriptures, while founded on the lingering traditions of Lucifer and Caligastia, were principally derived from the Zoroastrians during the times when the Jews were under the political and cultural dominance of the Persians. Zoroaster, like the Egyptians, taught the "day of judgment," but he connected this event with the end of the world."


THE CONCEPT OF SIN

89:2.1 The fear of chance and the dread of bad luck literally drove man into the invention of primitive religion as supposed insurance against these calamities. From magic and ghosts, religion evolved through spirits and fetishes to taboos. Every primitive tribe had its tree of forbidden fruit, literally the apple but figuratively consisting of a thousand branches hanging heavy with all sorts of taboos. And the forbidden tree always said, "Thou shalt not."

89:2.2 As the savage mind evolved to that point where it envisaged both good and bad spirits, and when the taboo received the solemn sanction of evolving religion, the stage was all set for the appearance of the new conception of sin. The idea of sin was universally established in the world before revealed religion ever made its entry. It was only by the concept of sin that natural death became logical to the primitive mind. Sin was the transgression of taboo, and death was the penalty of sin.

89:2.3 Sin was ritual, not rational; an act, not a thought. And this entire concept of sin was fostered by the lingering traditions of Dilmun and the days of a little paradise on earth. The tradition of Adam and the Garden of Eden also lent substance to the dream of a onetime "golden age" of the dawn of the races. And all this confirmed the ideas later expressed in the belief that man had his origin in a special creation, that he started his career in perfection, and that transgression of the taboos—sin—brought him down to his later sorry plight.

89:2.4 The habitual violation of a taboo became a vice; primitive law made vice a crime; religion made it a sin. Among the early tribes the violation of a taboo was a combined crime and sin. Community calamity was always regarded as punishment for tribal sin. To those who believed that prosperity and righteousness went together, the apparent prosperity of the wicked occasioned so much worry that it was necessary to invent hells for the punishment of taboo violators; the numbers of these places of future punishment have varied from one to five.

89:2.5 The idea of confession and forgiveness early appeared in primitive religion. Men would ask forgiveness at a public meeting for sins they intended to commit the following week. Confession was merely a rite of remission, also a public notification of defilement, a ritual of crying "unclean, unclean!" Then followed all the ritualistic schemes of purification. All ancient peoples practiced these meaningless ceremonies. Many apparently hygienic customs of the early tribes were largely ceremonial."





Caino
 

Aimiel

New member
Jesus taught that hell is absolutely real, without a doubt. Those who ignore His warnings do so at their own peril. Making what demons have dictated (the Urantia Books) into gospel is not just foolish, it's sacrilege and blasphemy.
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
Jesus taught that hell is absolutely real, without a doubt. Those who ignore His warnings do so at their own peril. Making what demons have dictated (the Urantia Books) into gospel is not just foolish, it's sacrilege and blasphemy.

You're uneducated in the Greek terms used by Jesus, and you lie when you say Jesus taught that Hell was real. Gehenna was the Greek word used by Jesus 12 times, it has been mistranslated then manipulated by shallow false profits.

Jesus illustrated quite clearly that there is life and death, That those who reject salvation simply do not awake from the sleep of death.

But your welcome to believe your halloween theology as you have no greater message.

Caino
 

Aimiel

New member
John testified that he saw the dead stand before God, as Jesus described, in the Great White Throne Judgment, where sheep will be separated from goats, such as yourself, and all those who aren't believers will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire, even hell itself. If you don't believe The Bible, you're liable to swallow anything, as you and Paul (Freelight) demonstrate daily.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
evolving concepts...........

evolving concepts...........

89:2.5 The idea of confession and forgiveness early appeared in primitive religion. Men would ask forgiveness at a public meeting for sins they intended to commit the following week. Confession was merely a rite of remission, also a public notification of defilement, a ritual of crying "unclean, unclean!" Then followed all the ritualistic schemes of purification. All ancient peoples practiced these meaningless ceremonies. Many apparently hygienic customs of the early tribes were largely ceremonial."

In addition we add -

89:10.5 The confession of sin is a manful repudiation of disloyalty, but it in no wise mitigates the time-space consequences of such disloyalty. But confession—sincere recognition of the nature of sin—is essential to religious growth and spiritual progress.

Obviously the concepts of 'sin', and its 'rectification' via many theories of atonement and the restoration to righteousness developed in time, as is the natural course of evolutionary progress. Concepts of 'heaven' and 'hell' were natural too, being intuited as consequences for one's thoughts and actions, the fundamental sense of 'karma'.

It continues within any conditional realm of existence, that souls partake of that which they sow (sowing and reaping), as actions have re-actions, cause/effect relationships, consequences, relational movements, etc. Fundamentally 'heaven' and 'hell' are essentially psychic/spiritual conditions or states of consciousness, either harmonious or discordant. - as souls transit beyond the physical dimension...realms exist that are consonant to the psychic and spiritual conditions of their inhabitants, there being various 'heavens' and 'hells'. The soul cannot escape the condition of its own 'being' or its 'karma', unless it has mediated its 'sins', remedied its ignorance thru 'knowledge', absolved its 'seperation' thru Love, restored itself to the divine will, becoming one with Source (at-one-ment).


pj
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
soul sleep.......

soul sleep.......

You're uneducated in the Greek terms used by Jesus, and you lie when you say Jesus taught that Hell was real. Gehenna was the Greek word used by Jesus 12 times, it has been mistranslated then manipulated by shallow false profits.

Jesus did use the term 'Gehenna' more than anything else as far as a 'word' translated into english as 'hell', a trash-dump, a place of refuse/waste, smoldering ruin, oblivion. Fires there only lasted as long as there was 'trash' to burn, after that going out. - they are everlasting....even if you want to use the term as a 'metaphor'.

Debunking superstitions about 'hell'


Jesus illustrated quite clearly that there is life and death, That those who reject salvation simply do not awake from the sleep of death.

Different viewpoint on this, of course. The issue of 'soul-death' or 'annihilation' of individual existence is an 'intricate' subject, considering if such is possible, a soul's integral, functional existence as a 'unit' is disintegrated, and becomes as if it had never been. (however, the values and meanings experienced by such a soul at any time in its life, are translated or carried over into that soul's thought-adjuster and augmented into the overall entirety of God the Supreme, for nothing of eternal value is ever lost, except that a soul's freedom of choice is near 'sovereign' regarding its own destiny, which includes the possibility of choosing a final and eternal 'death'. In this sense, 'death' is the cessation of functional existence, the de-struction of conscious integrity that constitutes one a 'sentient being' or 'living soul' with all its potential. The UB goes into detail about this 'process' and its conclusion.

Of course those souls who have chosen life and eternal survival, qualifiying for such....do not sleep indefinitely, but are 'resurrected' to continue their career. 'Sleep' is only temporary for some souls (until they are re-awakened), while for those who choose a final and eternal death....it is forever. They never wake up, being permanently dis-integrated.


Personality Survival



pj
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
John testified that he saw the dead stand before God, as Jesus described, in the Great White Throne Judgment, where sheep will be separated from goats, such as yourself, and all those who aren't believers will be cast alive into the Lake of Fire, even hell itself. If you don't believe The Bible, you're liable to swallow anything, as you and Paul (Freelight) demonstrate daily.

That's wishful thinking on your part Aimiel, rather it is you who have adopted book fetish or idolatry in making the writings of men into that of God.

It is utterly pathetic to make the false and child like claim that the Father of Jesus burns people alive in a fire, again, more wishful thinking from your hateful heart. What a cowardly and poor representative you are of the love of Christ.


happy halloween


Caino
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
It is utterly pathetic to make the false and child like claim that the Father of Jesus burns people alive in a fire, again, more wishful thinking from your hateful heart. What a cowardly and poor representative you are of the love of Christ.

Divine Justice and Mercy, which coordinate perfectly in the counsels of 'God' could never pronounce the fate of eternal conscious torment or suffering upon any one of its offspring. Infinite Love is much more wise and resourceful, and the conclusion-effect of the full embrace of whole-hearted iniquity or 'sin' is 'death'. 'Death' here is truly 'death' in every sense of the word.

I've usually held a 'universalist' belief, that all souls will ultimately come back into harmony with God, however,...if free will is honored to its ultimate end, this could include death. Again,....this is one viewpoint presented by the UB, and other like schools of thought...about 'soul-death', or 'eternal sleep'.


pj
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
Divine Justice and Mercy, which coordinate perfectly in the counsels of 'God' could never pronounce the fate of eternal conscious torment or suffering upon any one of its offspring. Infinite Love is much more wise and resourceful, and the conclusion-effect of the full embrace of whole-hearted iniquity or 'sin' is 'death'. 'Death' here is truly 'death' in every sense of the word.

I've usually held a 'universalist' belief, that all souls will ultimately come back into harmony with God, however,...if free will is honored to its ultimate end, this could include death. Again,....this is one viewpoint presented by the UB, and other like schools of thought...about 'soul-death', or 'eternal sleep'.


pj

Hi Free,

I like this paragraph:

"God loves the sinner and hates the sin: such a statement is true philosophically, but God is a transcendent personality, and persons can only love and hate other persons. Sin is not a person. God loves the sinner because he is a personality reality (potentially eternal), while towards sin God strikes no personal attitude, for sin is not a spiritual reality; it is not personal; therefore does only the justice of God take cognizance of its existence. The love of God saves the sinner; the law of God destroys the sin. This attitude of the divine nature would apparently change if the sinner finally identified himself wholly with sin just as the same mortal mind may also fully identify itself with the indwelling spirit Adjuster. Such a sin-identified mortal would then become wholly unspiritual in nature (and therefore personally unreal) and would experience eventual extinction of being. Unreality, even incompleteness of creature nature, cannot exist forever in a progressingly real and increasingly spiritual universe."​


Caino
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
equal opportunity.......

equal opportunity.......

Hi Free,

I like this paragraph:

"God loves the sinner and hates the sin: such a statement is true philosophically, but God is a transcendent personality, and persons can only love and hate other persons. Sin is not a person. God loves the sinner because he is a personality reality (potentially eternal), while towards sin God strikes no personal attitude, for sin is not a spiritual reality; it is not personal; therefore does only the justice of God take cognizance of its existence. The love of God saves the sinner; the law of God destroys the sin. This attitude of the divine nature would apparently change if the sinner finally identified himself wholly with sin just as the same mortal mind may also fully identify itself with the indwelling spirit Adjuster. Such a sin-identified mortal would then become wholly unspiritual in nature (and therefore personally unreal) and would experience eventual extinction of being. Unreality, even incompleteness of creature nature, cannot exist forever in a progressingly real and increasingly spiritual universe."​


Caino


Interesting to contemplate how one's full embrace of 'iniquity' or 'sin' can ultimately conclude in one's 'death' of one's 'personal existence' and its innate potential, if indeed the soul's will can choose total rejection of 'God' (Life) and have such result in 'personality' termination, the complete 'end' of that individual life-stream. Apparently this is one interpretation of what the 'second death' is, a 'death' from which there is no resurrection.

Thankfully, the higher tribunals exercise their judgments near perfectly in rendering the final verdict on souls who have placed themselves beyond redemption, and have by all accounts chosen to self-de-struct. (Only God could know if such a decision is complete and final). Because God is fully just and merciful, his judgments are governed by his eternal love and wisdom...always. God's fairness is so above any human concept of fairness, the source and foundation of true justice (justice is always tempered with mercy, because of Love's primacy and will...in doing all to redeem that of eternal value and potential (notwithstanding 'free will').


pj
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
the place of logic..............

the place of logic..............

~*~*~

Hi all,

Thought to continue some meditations on the subject of 'logic' and 'reason' from the UB, as I've recently been sharing on Dave's 'Test of Logic' thread. Some great quotes come from the Papers on 'Religion' (Papers 100 - 103).

In the thread above, I've questioned how far logic can take one. Obviously 'logic' and 'reason' have their place and function within their own capacity and power to determine anything. Yet there is that which transcends the human concepts of such within the faith and knowledge of genuine 'religious experience'.

Of significance is the very first Paper on the Universal Father, where the limitation of 'logic' is shared from the beginning -

1:2.4 The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction. God can be realized only in the realms of human experience; nevertheless, the true concept of the reality of God is reasonable to logic, plausible to philosophy, essential to religion, and indispensable to any hope of personality survival.

1:6.6 You can argue over opinions about God, but experience with him and in him exists above and beyond all human controversy and mere intellectual logic. The God-knowing man describes his spiritual experiences, not to convince unbelievers, but for the edification and mutual satisfaction of believers.

1:7.5 Ultimate universe reality cannot be grasped by mathematics, logic, or philosophy, only by personal experience in progressive conformity to the divine will of a personal God. Neither science, philosophy, nor theology can validate the personality of God. Only the personal experience of the faith sons of the heavenly Father can effect the actual spiritual realization of the personality of God.



pj
 
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