The Late Great Urantia Revelation

[Caino]

You mean no virgin birth? - granted the mistranslation issue of Is. 7:14, the virgin birth is only found in Matthew and Paul doesnt even mention it in his letters. However, the UB does uphold both the humanity and divinity of Jesus, yet in a different understanding, of which obviously a 'virgin birth' was not necessary in the 'process' of Jesus 'bestowal' or 'incarnation' as a human being. Perhaps this can be a 'launching pad' to to explore the 'Christology' of the UB, the 'synthesis' of both human and divine natures in the Lord Jesus.



pj

right, no virgin birth, that was a Pagan idea as well as the date of the 25th. The virgin birth (as well as other episodes of Jesus' life) have been "forced" into the OT books. Christian scholars were finally cornered on this by Jewish experts on the Hebrew terms and subsequently capitulated.

Caino

 

[freelight]

right, no virgin birth, that was a Pagan idea as well as the date of the 25th. The virgin birth (as well as other episodes of Jesus' life) have been "forced" into the OT books. Christian scholars were finally cornered on this by Jewish experts on the Hebrew terms and subsequently capitulated.

Caino

Yep,...let me correct my former statement for the 'virgin birth' is also 'pronounced' in Luke, not just Matthew, those 2 gospels.

Virgin Birth: Fact or fable?


pj

 

[Caino]

Thanks Freelight,

I looked at the link provided which prompted me to want to emphasize the "real" miracle, a miracle which is in fact a greater mystery then a virgin birth, the mystery know only in the councils of paradise.

THE INCARNATION—MAKING TWO ONE ​

120:4.1 And so certain unworthy children of Michael, who had accused their Creator-father of selfishly seeking rulership and indulged the insinuation that the Creator Son was arbitrarily and autocratically upheld in power by virtue of the unreasoning loyalty of a deluded universe of subservient creatures, were to be silenced forever and left confounded and disillusioned by the life of self-forgetful service which the Son of God now entered upon as the Son of Man—all the while subject to "the will of the Paradise Father."

120:4.2 But make no mistake; Christ Michael, while truly a dual-origin being, was not a double personality. He was not God in association with man but, rather, God incarnate in man. And he was always just that combined being. The only progressive factor in such a nonunderstandable relationship was the progressive self-conscious realization and recognition (by the human mind) of this fact of being God and man.

120:4.3 Christ Michael did not progressively become God. God did not, at some vital moment in the earth life of Jesus, become man. Jesus was God and man—always and even forevermore. And this God and this man were, and now are, one, even as the Paradise Trinity of three beings is in reality one Deity.

120:4.4 Never lose sight of the fact that the supreme spiritual purpose of the Michael bestowal was to enhance the revelation of God.

120:4.5 Urantia mortals have varying concepts of the miraculous, but to us who live as citizens of the local universe there are few miracles, and of these by far the most intriguing are the incarnational bestowals of the Paradise Sons. The appearance in and on your world, by apparently natural processes, of a divine Son, we regard as a miracle—the operation of universal laws beyond our understanding. Jesus of Nazareth was a miraculous person.

120:4.6 In and through all this extraordinary experience, God the Father chose to manifest himself as he always does—in the usual way—in the normal, natural, and dependable way of divine acting.


So as much as I admire and respect Thomas Jefferson (i live in the shadow of his mountain top home and my mother is buried down the hill from Jefferson) he was a scientist and didn't buy any miraculous incarnation talk. In fact, Jefferson thought the gospels were exaggerations in many areas. Jefferson wrote his own bible from clippings of the words of Jesus.


Caino

 

[Caino]

There has been much discussion by the antitrinitarians about this issue of Jesus dieing for three days. Its a legitimate point if, in fact, the Son of God actually died, fully and completely. Most of us believers in Jesus take for granted these things and haven't fully considered the consequences to the belief in Jesus' divinity. The Urantia revelation covers these extraordinary events and explains that, while the mortal body was dead, the Son of man was not, for he said that >he< would raise himself from the dead.

I have provided the following links and clips to consider. Enjoy:



"THE DAY AND A HALF that Jesus' mortal body lay in the tomb of Joseph, the period between his death on the cross and his resurrection, is a chapter in the earth career of Michael which is little known to us. We can narrate the burial of the Son of Man and put in this record the events associated with his resurrection, but we cannot supply much information of an authentic nature about what really transpired during this epoch of about thirty-six hours, from three o'clock Friday afternoon to three o'clock Sunday morning. This period in the Master's career began shortly before he was taken down from the cross by the Roman soldiers. He hung upon the cross about one hour after his death. He would have been taken down sooner but for the delay in dispatching the two brigands.........."



http://www.truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=1440#U188_0_1

DURING THE SABBATH DAY​

188:3.1 Throughout this Sabbath day the disciples and the apostles remained in hiding, while all Jerusalem discussed the death of Jesus on the cross. There were almost one and one-half million Jews present in Jerusalem at this time, hailing from all parts of the Roman Empire and from Mesopotamia. This was the beginning of the Passover week, and all these pilgrims would be in the city to learn of the resurrection of Jesus and to carry the report back to their homes.

188:3.2 Late Saturday night, John Mark summoned the eleven apostles secretly to come to the home of his father, where, just before midnight, they all assembled in the same upper chamber where they had partaken of the Last Supper with their Master two nights previously.

188:3.3 Mary the mother of Jesus, with Ruth and Jude, returned to Bethany to join their family this Saturday evening just before sunset. David Zebedee remained at the home of Nicodemus, where he had arranged for his messengers to assemble early Sunday morning. The women of Galilee, who prepared spices for the further embalming of Jesus' body, tarried at the home of Joseph of Arimathea.

188:3.4 We are not able fully to explain just what happened to Jesus of Nazareth during this period of a day and a half when he was supposed to be resting in Joseph's new tomb. Apparently he died the same natural death on the cross as would any other mortal in the same circumstances. We heard him say, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." We do not fully understand the meaning of such a statement inasmuch as his Thought Adjuster had long since been personalized and so maintained an existence apart from Jesus' mortal being. The Master's Personalized Adjuster could in no sense be affected by his physical death on the cross. That which Jesus put in the Father's hands for the time being must have been the spirit counterpart of the Adjuster's early work in spiritizing the mortal mind so as to provide for the transfer of the transcript of the human experience to the mansion worlds. There must have been some spiritual reality in the experience of Jesus which was analogous to the spirit nature, or soul, of the faith-growing mortals of the spheres. But this is merely our opinion—we do not really know what Jesus commended to his Father.

188:3.5 We know that the physical form of the Master rested there in Joseph's tomb until about three o'clock Sunday morning, but we are wholly uncertain regarding the status of the personality of Jesus during that period of thirty-six hours. We have sometimes dared to explain these things to ourselves somewhat as follows:

188:3.6 1. The Creator consciousness of Michael must have been at large and wholly free from its associated mortal mind of the physical incarnation.

188:3.7 2. The former Thought Adjuster of Jesus we know to have been present on earth during this period and in personal command of the assembled celestial hosts.

188:3.8 3. The acquired spirit identity of the man of Nazareth which was built up during his lifetime in the flesh, first, by the direct efforts of his Thought Adjuster, and later, by his own perfect adjustment between the physical necessities and the spiritual requirements of the ideal mortal existence, as it was effected by his never-ceasing choice of the Father's will, must have been consigned to the custody of the Paradise Father. Whether or not this spirit reality returned to become a part of the resurrected personality, we do not know, but we believe it did. But there are those in the universe who hold that this soul-identity of Jesus now reposes in the "bosom of the Father," to be subsequently released for leadership of the Nebadon Corps of the Finality in their undisclosed destiny in connection with the uncreated universes of the unorganized realms of outer space.

188:3.9 4. We think the human or mortal consciousness of Jesus slept during these thirty-six hours. We have reason to believe that the human Jesus knew nothing of what transpired in the universe during this period. To the mortal consciousness there appeared no lapse of time; the resurrection of life followed the sleep of death as of the same instant.

188:3.10 And this is about all we can place on record regarding the status of Jesus during this period of the tomb. There are a number of correlated facts to which we can allude, although we are hardly competent to undertake their interpretation.

188:3.11 In the vast court of the resurrection halls of the first mansion world of Satania, there may now be observed a magnificent material-morontia structure known as the "Michael Memorial," now bearing the seal of Gabriel. This memorial was created shortly after Michael departed from this world, and it bears this inscription: "In commemoration of the mortal transit of Jesus of Nazareth on Urantia."

188:3.12 There are records extant which show that during this period the supreme council of Salvington, numbering one hundred, held an executive meeting on Urantia under the presidency of Gabriel. There are also records showing that the Ancients of Days of Uversa communicated with Michael regarding the status of the universe of Nebadon during this time.

188:3.13 We know that at least one message passed between Michael and Immanuel on Salvington while the Master's body lay in the tomb.

188:3.14 There is good reason for believing that some personality sat in the seat of Caligastia in the system council of the Planetary Princes on Jerusem which convened while the body of Jesus rested in the tomb.

188:3.15 The records of Edentia indicate that the Constellation Father of Norlatiadek was on Urantia, and that he received instructions from Michael during this time of the tomb.

188:3.16 And there is much other evidence which suggests that not all of the personality of Jesus was asleep and unconscious during this time of apparent physical death.

Caino

 

[Stuu]

Why not just post the who sorry urantia book of plagiarism into one big post.

Then it would be done and we could move on to other things that are not both laughable like Scientology and immoral like common thievery.

Stuart

 

[Caino]

Why not just post the who sorry urantia book of plagiarism into one big post.

Then it would be done and we could move on to other things that are not both laughable like Scientology and immoral like common thievery.

Stuart

Feel free to move on to other things to criticise Stuu, your not a real truth seeker nor a scientist, rather a heckler, an unhappy nonbeliever obsessed with religion. You only offer negative, divisive criticism and intellectually dishonest debate.

Scientist, real scientist study the material world with humility, when they make discoveries they don't claim to have created something, just observing what was in existence before they were, a universe from which they came.

Stuu's accusations have been dealt with before but Stuu cannot explain how the UB has revealed things that science did not know when the revelation occurred. The UB states from the beginning that they will use some of what we already know to reveal what we do not know, or information that has been lost over time.

ACKNOWLEDGMENT ​

0:12.10 In formulating the succeeding presentations having to do with the portrayal of the character of the Universal Father and the nature of his Paradise associates, together with an attempted description of the perfect central universe and the encircling seven superuniverses, we are to be guided by the mandate of the superuniverse rulers which directs that we shall, in all our efforts to reveal truth and co-ordinate essential knowledge, give preference to the highest existing human concepts pertaining to the subjects to be presented. We may resort to pure revelation only when the concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind.

0:12.11 Successive planetary revelations of divine truth invariably embrace the highest existing concepts of spiritual values as a part of the new and enhanced co-ordination of planetary knowledge. Accordingly, in making these presentations about God and his universe associates, we have selected as the basis of these papers more than one thousand human concepts representing the highest and most advanced planetary knowledge of spiritual values and universe meanings. Wherein these human concepts, assembled from the God-knowing mortals of the past and the present, are inadequate to portray the truth as we are directed to reveal it, we will unhesitatingly supplement them, for this purpose drawing upon our own superior knowledge of the reality and divinity of the Paradise Deities and their transcendent residential universe.

0:12.12 We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind. But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience—God-consciousness.

0:12.13 [Indited by an Orvonton Divine Counselor, chief of the corps of superuniverse personalities assigned to portray on Urantia the truth concerning the Paradise Deities and the universe of universes.]​

Caino

 

[freelight]

enlighten yourself.......

enlighten yourself.......

Why not just post the who sorry urantia book of plagiarism into one big post.

Stuart

The claim for plagiarism has been addressed in our other Urantia Thread Here (in more post than one). Your harping on this continually shows your agenda only to disparage and malign, without learning what the revelators have actually claimed, in using human sources of knowledge adding to it with further revelation. Also much of the UB's revelation is unique to itself, and certainly not 'plagarized' from any source previously known (aspects of cosmology, names of beings, systems, worlds, the Thought Adjuster, details of the soul's journey and ascension process, the status of Jesus as Christ-Michael, not being the Eternal Son(of the Trinity), but 'a' Creator Son among many Creator Sons, etc. Plus many added commentaries and records of Jesus teachings are given, supplementing the records in our canonical gospels, in Part 4. So the claim of any plagiarism can be put to rest when the facts and context of such is appropriately considered.

Then it would be done and we could move on to other things that are not both laughable like Scientology and immoral like common thievery.

What the UB is as a whole in its universal signficance, cannot be compared to Scientology or 'theivery'..... teaching the highest moral principles, ethics and religious precepts, a synthesis and cosmic integration of such for this dispensation. Your slamming such does not affect its truth, but may all the more accentuate it (when ignorance is exposed).


pj

 

[Caino]

We've been discussing the problems with Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and the failure of those expectations to come to fruition for the Israelites. The Urantia revelation basically explains that the problem wasn't Jesus, "The Son of God incarnate", the problem was the evolution of the concept of the expected Messiah within the Jewish world view.

CONCEPTS OF THE EXPECTED MESSIAH

"There was one feature of the bestowal of Michael which was utterly foreign to the Jewish conception of the Messiah, and that was the union of the two natures, the human and the divine." ​

136:1.1 "The Jews entertained many ideas about the expected deliverer, and each of these different schools of Messianic teaching was able to point to statements in the Hebrew scriptures as proof of their contentions. In a general way, the Jews regarded their national history as beginning with Abraham and culminating in the Messiah and the new age of the kingdom of God. In earlier times they had envisaged this deliverer as "the servant of the Lord," then as "the Son of Man," while latterly some even went so far as to refer to the Messiah as the "Son of God." But no matter whether he was called the "seed of Abraham" or "the son of David," all were agreed that he was to be the Messiah, the "anointed one." Thus did the concept evolve from the "servant of the Lord" to the "son of David," "Son of Man," and "Son of God."

136:1.2 In the days of John and Jesus the more learned Jews had developed an idea of the coming Messiah as the perfected and representative Israelite, combining in himself as the "servant of the Lord" the threefold office of prophet, priest, and king.

136:1.3 The Jews devoutly believed that, as Moses had delivered their fathers from Egyptian bondage by miraculous wonders, so would the coming Messiah deliver the Jewish people from Roman domination by even greater miracles of power and marvels of racial triumph. The rabbis had gathered together almost five hundred passages from the Scriptures, which, notwithstanding their apparent contradictions, they averred were prophetic of the coming Messiah. And amidst all these details of time, technique, and function, they almost completely lost sight of the personality of the promised Messiah. They were looking for a restoration of Jewish national glory—Israel's temporal exaltation—rather than for the salvation of the world. It therefore becomes evident that Jesus of Nazareth could never satisfy this materialistic Messianic concept of the Jewish mind. Many of their reputed Messianic predictions, had they but viewed these prophetic utterances in a different light, would have very naturally prepared their minds for a recognition of Jesus as the terminator of one age and the inaugurator of a new and better dispensation of mercy and salvation for all nations.

136:1.4 The Jews had been brought up to believe in the doctrine of the Shekinah. But this reputed symbol of the Divine Presence was not to be seen in the temple. They believed that the coming of the Messiah would effect its restoration. They held confusing ideas about racial sin and the supposed evil nature of man. Some taught that Adam's sin had cursed the human race, and that the Messiah would remove this curse and restore man to divine favor. Others taught that God, in creating man, had put into his being both good and evil natures; that when he observed the outworking of this arrangement, he was greatly disappointed, and that "He repented that he had thus made man." And those who taught this believed that the Messiah was to come in order to redeem man from this inherent evil nature.

136:1.5 The majority of the Jews believed that they continued to languish under Roman rule because of their national sins and because of the halfheartedness of the gentile proselytes. The Jewish nation had not wholeheartedly repented; therefore did the Messiah delay his coming. There was much talk about repentance; wherefore the mighty and immediate appeal of John's preaching, "Repent and be baptized, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." And the kingdom of heaven could mean only one thing to any devout Jew: The coming of the Messiah.

136:1.6 There was one feature of the bestowal of Michael which was utterly foreign to the Jewish conception of the Messiah, and that was the union of the two natures, the human and the divine. The Jews had variously conceived of the Messiah as perfected human, superhuman, and even as divine, but they never entertained the concept of the union of the human and the divine. And this was the great stumbling block of Jesus' early disciples. They grasped the human concept of the Messiah as the son of David, as presented by the earlier prophets; as the Son of Man, the superhuman idea of Daniel and some of the later prophets; and even as the Son of God, as depicted by the author of the Book of Enoch and by certain of his contemporaries; but never had they for a single moment entertained the true concept of the union in one earth personality of the two natures, the human and the divine. The incarnation of the Creator in the form of the creature had not been revealed beforehand. It was revealed only in Jesus; the world knew nothing of such things until the Creator Son was made flesh and dwelt among the mortals of the realm."


Caino

 

[Stuu]

What a pair you two are. Apologists for burglary.

Just remind you again: the discoverer of the structure of the atom was Lord Rutherford of Nelson. That is the name of the human whose brilliance and unparalleled abilities at scientific investigation FIRST showed us this fact.

Your apologies for those who thieved such ideas without crediting those who ACTUALLY DID THE WORK support an illegal act (since it apparently happened within the period of copyright), and certainly is unethical (since it is plagiarism).

But feel free to base your lives on a fantasy rip-off of others. Perhaps, unlike Rutherford, you and the Saddlers have nothing original to contribute to the world.

Stuart

 

[Caino]

What a pair you two are. Apologists for burglary.

Just remind you again: the discoverer of the structure of the atom was Lord Rutherford of Nelson. That is the name of the human whose brilliance and unparalleled abilities at scientific investigation FIRST showed us this fact.

Your apologies for those who thieved such ideas without crediting those who ACTUALLY DID THE WORK support an illegal act (since it apparently happened within the period of copyright), and certainly is unethical (since it is plagiarism).

But feel free to base your lives on a fantasy rip-off of others. Perhaps, unlike Rutherford, you and the Saddlers have nothing original to contribute to the world.

Stuart

The UB did state from the beginning that it would use discovered knowledge.

And we really don't care about the discoveries claimed by science after the the UB revealed them first. The self important, egotistical scientific community are free to congratulate themselves for discovering things created by God.

Those scientist are all dead, their discoveries did nothing to carry them beyond the grave.

Caino

 

[Stuu]

The UB did state from the beginning that it would use discovered knowledge.

Yes, discovered in the papers published by the scientists who sweated the hours and took the risks.

You don't appear to have any shame at all about this blatant rip-off. Do you have any ethics?

And we really don't care about the discoveries claimed by science after the the UB revealed them first.

Do you care about the ones discovered by real human beings decades before your moronic book stole them?

The self important, egotistical scientific community are free to congratulate themselves for discovering things created by God.

So you won't be taking any more prescription medicines on principle then.

For hundreds of thousands of years humans suffered painful deaths from bacterial infections, and apparently your god stood by and did nothing. In the past century humans have discovered how to treat such infections with a high expectation of cure, and now you are giving the credit to your god? What a barbaric monster you worship.

Those scientist are all dead, their discoveries did nothing to carry them beyond the grave.

This is quite revealing. Of course what it really reveals about you is that you are an unscrupulous hypocrite for accepting all the benefits of this science that you both rip off and boast about in your moronic little book, and at the same time abusing those who developed it while your god was supposedly sitting on its hands. What is more, shall we see if Alexander Fleming, the man who discovered the antibiotic effects of penicillin would attribute his discovery to divine revelation? If he was generous he might just laugh at your small-minded and ungrateful attitude. He would have every right to describe the situation as pearls of brilliance cast before ungrateful swine, too.

Stuart

 

[Caino]

Yes, discovered in the papers published by the scientists who sweated the hours and took the risks.

You don't appear to have any shame at all about this blatant rip-off. Do you have any ethics?


Do you care about the ones discovered by real human beings decades before your moronic book stole them?


So you won't be taking any more prescription medicines on principle then.

For hundreds of thousands of years humans suffered painful deaths from bacterial infections, and apparently your god stood by and did nothing. In the past century humans have discovered how to treat such infections with a high expectation of cure, and now you are giving the credit to your god? What a barbaric monster you worship.


This is quite revealing. Of course what it really reveals about you is that you are an unscrupulous hypocrite for accepting all the benefits of this science that you both rip off and boast about in your moronic little book, and at the same time abusing those who developed it while your god was supposedly sitting on its hands. What is more, shall we see if Alexander Fleming, the man who discovered the antibiotic effects of penicillin would attribute his discovery to divine revelation? If he was generous he might just laugh at your small-minded and ungrateful attitude. He would have every right to describe the situation as pearls of brilliance cast before ungrateful swine, too.

Stuart

* The UB nor it's authors claim to have "discovered" anything....they said "give preference to the highest existing human concepts pertaining to the subjects to be presented. We may resort to pure revelation only when the concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind."

........highest existing human concepts ​

.....previous expression by the human mind​

Come on Stuu, you're better then that, I may annoy you with my beliefs, you certainly can believe what you think is right, but you are getting angry and silly about this.

* Had you actually read the UB you would know that it supports the "discovery" by scientist that this is an evolutionary world. That it is incumbent upon mankind to solve the material problems that he is confronted with.

You would also know that had our administrator "Lucifer" not become Atheist and rebelled against the wise council of his superiors then many diseases would have been eradicated hundreds of thousands of years ago. But Lucifer's default followed by Adam and Eves molestation, retarded the normal, evolutionary process for this world.

* The UB does not teach that God is some sort of Santa Clause that will heal and fix people when called upon, we are to solve these problems using science and common sense.

* I and billions of others are grateful for the work of science, where we differ is when since becomes religion and teaches Godlessness. It is no longer science when it does that.


Caino

 

[alwight]

You would also know that had our administrator "Lucifer" not become Atheist and rebelled against the wise council of his superiors then many diseases would have been eradicated hundreds of thousands of years ago. But Lucifer's default followed by Adam and Eves molestation, retarded the normal, evolutionary process for this world.

An honest question Caino, I haven't read the UB and to be frank not really likely to, sorry if it is naive.
How could it be possible for Lucifer to not believe in a God presumably well known to him and thereby become an atheist? ("become Atheist")
I assume that your capital "A" proper noun version of "atheist" has no alternative meaning here.

 

[Caino]

An honest question Caino, I haven't read the UB and to be frank not really likely to, sorry if it is naive.
How could it be possible for Lucifer to not believe in a God presumably well known to him and thereby become an atheist? ("become Atheist")
I assume that your capital "A" proper noun version of "atheist" has no alternative meaning here.

Hi alwight,

Good and obveous question.

The Urantia revelation explains that Lucifer, just like the myriad of other created celestial beings, also lived by faith in the unseen Father. They certainly know the Creator Son, Michael (our Jesus) and a host of other beings under the authority of Christ, but they must trust in the Fathers existence "through the Son".

When Lucifer rebelled "there was war in heaven"....an ideological war. This great, brilliant "angel of light" lead many into rebellion against the rule of the Father via The Son.

50 years after Christ left this world John saw parts of this in his revelation while in exile on Patmos:

"Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him." ​

200,000 years ago our spiritual, planetary administrator "the prince of this world" (the crafty beast) was also swept up in the rebellion. The plan for our world was interrupted.

39,000 years ago witnessed the arrival of Adam and Eve, the beast managed to outflank and trick them as well, although they did not re bell, they repented of their sin.

More imfo from the UB:

THE LUCIFER REBELLION ​

LUCIFER WAS A BRILLIANT primary Lanonandek Son of Nebadon. He had experienced service in many systems, had been a high counselor of his group, and was distinguished for wisdom, sagacity, and efficiency. Lucifer was number 37 of his order, and when commissioned by the Melchizedeks, he was designated as one of the one hundred most able and brilliant personalities in more than seven hundred thousand of his kind. From such a magnificent beginning, through evil and error, he embraced sin and now is numbered as one of three System Sovereigns in Nebadon who have succumbed to the urge of self and surrendered to the sophistry of spurious personal liberty—rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, blindness to cosmic relationships.

53:0.2 In the universe of Nebadon, the domain of Christ Michael, there are ten thousand systems of inhabited worlds. In all the history of Lanonandek Sons, in all their work throughout these thousands of systems and at the universe headquarters, only three System Sovereigns have ever been found in contempt of the government of the Creator Son..........



http://www.truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=1300#U53_0_1



Caino

 

[freelight]

meanings and values revealed thru 'experience'

meanings and values revealed thru 'experience'

I haven't read the UB and to be frank not really likely to, sorry if it is naive.
How could it be possible for Lucifer to not believe in a God presumably well known to him and thereby become an atheist? ("become Atheist")
I assume that your capital "A" proper noun version of "atheist" has no alternative meaning here.

I see the term 'atheist' here as only anti-God in ideology, for Lucifer in this cosmic-drama (as the UB renders it) rebelled against the higher government, directions and will of the Universal Father. Lucifer therefore 'consciously' rebelled against the usual procedure and rules of divine Providence, therefore defying such for his own egoic desires and personal-self-interest which was contrary to the principles of God. This agrees with some aspects of the traditional Christian view of the fall of Lucifer, yet the UB shares much more details and context from a higher cosmic perspective. Lucifer is not so much an 'atheist' as he is a 'rebel'.

Whether he can be rehabilitated, change his orientation and be restored to the service of God remains to be seen as such is under the adjudication of the Higher Tribunals at this time. Lucifer and Satan await the final verdict of their sentence, being detained in the prison worlds of Jerusem. - only the Higher Councils can ultimately determine whether such beings can be restored or have the will or capacity of repentance, or will undergo 'disintegration' (annihilation of existence as functioning entities). - if the latter case,...these souls will truly undergo an eternal and final 'death' (to be no more).

What many not that familiar with the UB fail to see is that this huge tome is a wonderful dispensational revelation to the planet, which uses the vast archives of human knowledge as the base, structure and context in which the greater knowledge and wisdom of the celestial intelligences could expand their message of the great purpose and will of God, hilighting the soul's purpose and eternal potential in the evolutionary progress of life. If one keeps these principles in mind, the details of the story are symbols or artifacts of language explaining or pointing to the core-essentials that matter and translate themselves sin time and eternity. Hence, seeing such within the context of a cosmic-drama or mythos. All creation and our human lives are a 'story', on ongoing saga. Life is a theater of 'experience'. With this in mind, the 'story' becomes a vehicle expounding the meanings and value of life as discovered and determined thru 'experience' (the play of space/time...the adventure of 'relationships')




pj

 

[alwight]

Thanks for your reply Caino.
(hastily revised version)
Freelight seems to suggest that the definition of “atheist” may be the cause of some confusion in me here, which I consider to mean a disbelief in gods, as theism reflects belief.
What I seem to be seeing here might be described as anti-theos or anti-god.
I rather think then that the term "atheist" has been misapplied here but not by me imo.

However from my original perspective it remained unclear to me how anyone could suddenly develop disbelief for the very existence of a God he was previously sufficiently aware of to rebel against. I will assume here only that “atheist” means anti-God and not quibble.
Since God would have been whoever was the head honcho of heaven “why would anyone suddenly acquire a disbelief in the very entity the war was being fought over?” was my original thought until reading freelight’s post anyway. :idunno:

 

[freelight]

Thanks for your reply Caino.
(hastily revised version)
Freelight seems to suggest that the definition of “atheist” may be the cause of some confusion in me here, which I consider to mean a disbelief in gods, as theism reflects belief.
What I seem to be seeing here might be described as anti-theos or anti-god.
I rather think then that the term "atheist" has been misapplied here but not by me imo.

However from my original perspective it remained unclear to me how anyone could suddenly develop disbelief for the very existence of a God he was previously sufficiently aware of to rebel against. I will assume here only that “atheist” means anti-God and not quibble.
Since God would have been whoever was the head honcho of heaven “why would anyone suddenly acquire a disbelief in the very entity the war was being fought over?” was my original thought until reading freelight’s post anyway. :idunno:

Yes,...a matter of how one defines 'atheism' - to me its just a word, although some theists abhor the idea. - Atheism to me is no threat at all, since I see 'God' as the universal reality, - it may only pose a problem when one's 'atheism' keeps one from recognizing and appreciating the inherent truth of Life and its underlying beauty, harmony and potentials. Interestingly the UB only mentions the word 'atheism' once, and never associates such with Lucifer specifically.


pj

 

[alwight]

For the record, even on this thread I am not, and never have been anti-any gods.

 

[Caino]

Alwight,

I may not have been clear:

Lucifer had to live by faith in the unseen Father.

Lucifer lost his faith in the unseen Father.


But then Lucifer actively began to rebel against the rule of The Son who he did know personally (knowing the creator Son was not a matter of faith, it was a matter of fact.



Agnostic= not really sure, doubtful but open, perhaps disinterested.

Atheist= mind made up, the doctrines of doubt, petrified doubt that has itself become a religion.


Lets look at Lucifers manifesto and attempt to make himself "God of this world".

THE LUCIFER MANIFESTO​

53:3.1 Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads:

53:3.2 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father's name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father's actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel's proposals.

53:3.3 2. The universe government of the Creator Son—Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler.

53:3.4 Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days—"foreign potentates"—to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights.

53:3.5 He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.

53:3.6 3. The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical and unsound. He protested against the agelong program for preparing the mortals of space for some unknown destiny and pointed to the presence of the finaliter corps on Jerusem as proof that these mortals had spent ages of preparation for some destiny of pure fiction. With derision he pointed out that the finaliters had encountered a destiny no more glorious than to be returned to humble spheres similar to those of their origin. He intimated that they had been debauched by overmuch discipline and prolonged training, and that they were in reality traitors to their mortal fellows since they were now co-operating with the scheme of enslaving all creation to the fictions of a mythical eternal destiny for ascending mortals. He advocated that ascenders should enjoy the liberty of individual self-determination. He challenged and condemned the entire plan of mortal ascension as sponsored by the Paradise Sons of God and supported by the Infinite Spirit.

53:3.7 And it was with such a Declaration of Liberty that Lucifer launched his orgy of darkness and death.

THE CAUSES OF REBELLION​

53:2.1 Lucifer and his first assistant, Satan had reigned on Jerusem for more than five hundred thousand years when in their hearts they began to array themselves against the Universal Father and his then vicegerent Son, Michael.

53:2.2 There were no peculiar or special conditions in the system of Satania which suggested or favored rebellion. It is our belief that the idea took origin and form in Lucifer's mind, and that he might have instigated such a rebellion no matter where he might have been stationed. Lucifer first announced his plans to Satan but it required several months to corrupt the mind of his able and brilliant associate. However, when once converted to the rebel theories, he became a bold and earnest advocate of "self-assertion and liberty."

53:2.3 No one ever suggested rebellion to Lucifer. The idea of self-assertion in opposition to the will of Michael and to the plans of the Universal Father, as they are represented in Michael, had its origin in his own mind. His relations with the Creator Son had been intimate and always cordial. At no time prior to the exaltation of his own mind did Lucifer openly express dissatisfaction about the universe administration. Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer's mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.

53:2.4 Throughout this period Lucifer became increasingly critical of the entire plan of universe administration but always professed wholehearted loyalty to the Supreme Rulers. His first outspoken disloyalty was manifested on the occasion of a visit of Gabriel to Jerusem just a few days before the open proclamation of the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. Gabriel was so profoundly impressed with the certainty of the impending outbreak that he went direct to Edentia to confer with the Constellation Fathers regarding the measures to be employed in case of open rebellion.

53:2.5 It is very difficult to point out the exact cause or causes which finally culminated in the Lucifer rebellion. We are certain of only one thing, and that is: Whatever these first beginnings were, they had their origin in Lucifer's mind. There must have been a pride of self that nourished itself to the point of self-deception, so that Lucifer for a time really persuaded himself that his contemplation of rebellion was actually for the good of the system, if not of the universe. By the time his plans had developed to the point of disillusionment, no doubt he had gone too far for his original and mischief-making pride to permit him to stop. At some point in this experience he became insincere, and evil evolved into deliberate and willful sin. That this happened is proved by the subsequent conduct of this brilliant executive. He was long offered opportunity for repentance, but only some of his subordinates ever accepted the proffered mercy. The Faithful of Days of Edentia, on the request of the

 

[alwight]

Alwight,

I may not have been clear:

Lucifer had to live by faith in the unseen Father.

Lucifer lost his faith in the unseen Father.


But then Lucifer actively began to rebel against the rule of The Son who he did know personally (knowing the creator Son was not a matter of faith, it was a matter of fact.



Agnostic= not really sure, doubtful but open, perhaps disinterested.

Atheist= mind made up, the doctrines of doubt, petrified doubt that has itself become a religion.

Despite what I said before I feel some need to quibble now.
In your imagined environment real life definitions don't have to get in the way of the plot presumably.

From my real world MS Word dictionary:
Agnostic= "somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists"
Atheist= "somebody who does not believe in God or deities"

To be clear then I am an atheist, which means I do not believe in any gods, but I'm not someone who is against the idea. It says absolutely nothing about whether my mind is made up that no gods are possible. Atheism is no more a religion in the real world than theism is a religion which it isn't, even if in your fantasy world it needs to be.

I also consider myself to be an agnostic too because I don't believe that knowledge of any gods is possible either.

IOW theism/atheism are the two sides of belief, while gnosticism/agnosticism is similarly about knowledge.

The definitions of the two words that you have used are erroneous outside the realm of fantasy or they are a deliberate mis-characterisation by some believers probably fearful of disbelief.

I'm sorry to quibble but your definitions imo are common theistic misconceptions that I think needs to be pointed out.