The Late Great Urantia Revelation

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Yazichestvo

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Divine Justice and Mercy, which coordinate perfectly in the counsels of 'God' could never pronounce the fate of eternal conscious torment or suffering upon any one of its offspring. Infinite Love is much more wise and resourceful, and the conclusion-effect of the full embrace of whole-hearted iniquity or 'sin' is 'death'. 'Death' here is truly 'death' in every sense of the word.

I've usually held a 'universalist' belief, that all souls will ultimately come back into harmony with God, however,...if free will is honored to its ultimate end, this could include death. Again,....this is one viewpoint presented by the UB, and other like schools of thought...about 'soul-death', or 'eternal sleep'.


pj

This was a fairly typical outlook among the Zoroastrians, mentioned earlier among your texts. Their judgment day involved a cleansing of the wicked by fire and molten metal. In other words something painful, we are lead to imagine, but only a temporary purifying process before being reunited with Ahura Mazda.

In my personal view, the Christian hell is something of a corruption of the original concept. There's absolutely nothing about it that's specifically Abrahamic, after all. For the Greeks, it was tartarus- which took different forms. Hesiod's tartarus was not Plato's tartarus, but the latter fairly resembled hell. There was also the Orphic hell where people wallowed in mud. There is also the Norse Hel, and the dragon Nidhogg who gnaws the corpses of traitors and murderers. Lots and lots of hells,basically. My own Slavic tradition has similar notions- the pagan Slavs actually seem to have inherited the Persian word for heaven [(PSl. *rāji 'heaven' (Old Church Slavonic rajь, Polish raj, Russian raj) < Iranian *rāy- (Avestan rāy)] from the east prior to contact with Christianity. The really shallow, unenlightened thing about the Christian hell is that it's often treated, at least in our culture, as a destination for the incredulous rather than the amoral.

"The Jewish traditions of heaven and hell and the doctrine of devils as recorded in the Hebrew scriptures, while founded on the lingering traditions of Lucifer and Caligastia, were principally derived from the Zoroastrians during the times when the Jews were under the political and cultural dominance of the Persians. Zoroaster, like the Egyptians, taught the "day of judgment," but he connected this event with the end of the world.


As much as I appreciate the "shout out" to Zoroastrianism (a faith that could teach a lot of modern monotheists a thing or two about the development of religious ideas throughout history) in the Urantia papers, it still raises the question of why religion seems to be constantly reinventing itself- and now again with this new revelation. Many of these ideas have had countless permutations already, so one imagines God could have gotten the whole message across before now. There's sort of this idea that always shows up of the new revelation being "more complete" or "more sophisticated" than what came before. Or that ancient man just couldn't fathom the true religion in its full complexity. but if you look at older religions they *are* often fairly complex and complete, with developed eschatology and everything. There is no hint or suggestion of gaps, or that more is yet to come. In the same way, these Urantia papers seem to suggest that they are complete, but who knows how many more revelations will come after it claiming they are not?
 
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Caino

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This was a fairly typical outlook among the Zoroastrians, mentioned earlier among your texts. Their judgment day involved a cleansing of the wicked by fire and molten metal. In other words something painful, we are lead to imagine, but only a temporary purifying process before being reunited with Ahura Mazda.

In my personal view, the Christian hell is something of a corruption of the original concept. There's absolutely nothing about it that's specifically Abrahamic, after all. For the Greeks, it was tartarus- which took different forms. Hesiod's tartarus was not Plato's tartarus, but the latter fairly resembled hell. There was also the Orphic hell where people wallowed in mud. There is also the Norse Hel, and the dragon Nidhogg who gnaws the corpses of traitors and murderers. Lots and lots of hells,basically. My own Slavic tradition has similar notions- the pagan Slavs actually seem to have inherited the Persian word for heaven [(PSl. *rāji 'heaven' (Old Church Slavonic rajь, Polish raj, Russian raj) < Iranian *rāy- (Avestan rāy)] from the east prior to contact with Christianity. The really shallow, unenlightened thing about the Christian hell is that it's often treated, at least in our culture, as a destination for the incredulous rather than the amoral.




As much as I appreciate the "shout out" to Zoroastrianism (a faith that could teach a lot of modern monotheists a thing or two about the development of religious ideas throughout history) in the Urantia papers, it still raises the question of why religion seems to be constantly reinventing itself- and now again with this new revelation. Many of these ideas have had countless permutations already, so one imagines God could have gotten the whole message across before now. There's sort of this idea that always shows up of the new revelation being "more complete" or "more sophisticated" than what came before. Or that ancient man just couldn't fathom the true religion in its full complexity. but if you look at older religions they *are* often fairly complex and complete, with developed eschatology and everything. There is no hint or suggestion of gaps, or that more is yet to come. In the same way, these Urantia papers seem to suggest that they are complete, but who knows how many more revelations will come after it claiming they are not?


Hi Yazichestvo,

Thank you for the insightful inquiry. The UB presents phylisophical answers to the questions you asked, and it most certainly does not claim to be complete or final. I will do my best to restate them with some direct quoteing.

*The Urantia Papers. "The papers, of which this is one, constitute the most recent presentation of truth to the mortals of Urantia. These papers differ from all previous revelations, for they are not the work of a single universe personality but a composite presentation by many beings. But no revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space. While such admissions as this may possibly detract from the immediate force and authority of all revelations, the time has arrived on Urantia when it is advisable to make such frank statements, even at the risk of weakening the future influence and authority of this, the most recent of the revelations of truth to the mortal races of Urantia."

* Mankind should understand that we who participate in the revelation of truth are very rigorously limited by the instructions of our superiors. We are not at liberty to anticipate the scientific discoveries of a thousand years. Revelators must act in accordance with the instructions which form a part of the revelation mandate. We see no way of overcoming this difficulty, either now or at any future time. We full well know that, while the historic facts and religious truths of this series of revelatory presentations will stand on the records of the ages to come, within a few short years many of our statements regarding the physical sciences will stand in need of revision in consequence of additional scientific developments and new discoveries. These new developments we even now foresee, but we are forbidden to include such humanly undiscovered facts in the revelatory records. Let it be made clear that revelations are not necessarily inspired. The cosmology of these revelations is not inspired. It is limited by our permission for the co-ordination and sorting of present-day knowledge. While divine or spiritual insight is a gift, human wisdom must evolve.

*The gift of revelation. "Revelation is evolutionary but always progressive. Down through the ages of a world’s history, the revelations of religion are ever-expanding and successively more enlightening. It is the mission of revelation to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution. But if revelation is to exalt and up step the religions of evolution, then must such divine visitations portray teachings which are not too far removed from the thought and reactions of the age in which they are presented. Thus must and does revelation always keep in touch with evolution. Always must the religion of revelation be limited by man’s capacity of receptivity."


Caino speaking now:

Our world is an evolutionary one, most of what we know is in a state of flux; science also appears to reinvent itself over time as new facts come to light. Both science and religion suffer when they draw conclusions of final value that can only be theory.

There are two kinds of religion, evolved and revealed. Evolved religion, initiated primarily by ghost fear, is the "scaffolding", the foundation for the latter reception of revealed religion. But invariably, these revelations which appeal to the higher minds in the days of there coming are ultimately contaminated and debased by the older more primitive practices of evolving man as time marches onward.

There is another very unfortunate consideration which further complicates the presentation of spiritual truth or "revelation" to man; later generations which are far removed from the initial revelatory event, begin to "doubt" the "oral traditions" handed down to them. So when the narratives are retold, vital facts are lost. The incarnation of Melchizedek was one such major redaction of Hebrew history. When the preist class retold that story long after, they had God directly coming down and speaking with Abraham and establishing a covenent. Another such influence on the safe keeping of those histories is the cultural disruption of wars, politics, ecclesiastical infighting and the like. Biblical scholarship has demonstrated that the whole of the OT was redacted and edited during the Babylonian captivity period. Some of the critical books mentioned in the OT don't actually exist any more.



Caino
 
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Caino

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"The Sons of the next order to arrive on the average evolutionary world are the Trinity Teacher Sons, the divine Sons of the Paradise Trinity. Again we find Urantia out of step with its sister spheres in that your Jesus has promised to return. That promise he will certainly fulfill, but no one knows whether his second coming will precede or follow the appearances of Magisterial or Teacher Sons on Urantia."​


THE MASTER'S SECOND COMING

176:2.1 On several occasions Jesus had made statements which led his hearers to infer that, while he intended presently to leave this world, he would most certainly return to consummate the work of the heavenly kingdom. As the conviction grew on his followers that he was going to leave them, and after he had departed from this world, it was only natural for all believers to lay fast hold upon these promises to return. The doctrine of the second coming of Christ thus became early incorporated into the teachings of the Christians, and almost every subsequent generation of disciples has devoutly believed this truth and has confidently looked forward to his sometime coming.

176:2.2 If they were to part with their Master and Teacher, how much more did these first disciples and the apostles grasp at this promise to return, and they lost no time in associating the predicted destruction of destruction of Jerusalem with this promised second coming. And they continued thus to interpret his words notwithstanding that, throughout this evening of instruction on Mount Olivet, the Master took particular pains to prevent just such a mistake.

176:2.3 In further answer to Peter's question, Jesus said: "Why do you still look for the Son of Man to sit upon the throne of David and expect that the material dreams of the Jews will be fulfilled? Have I not told you all these years that my kingdom is not of this world? The things which you now look down upon are coming to an end, but this will be a new beginning out of which the gospel of the kingdom will go to all the world and this salvation will spread to all peoples. And when the kingdom shall have come to its full fruition, be assured that the Father in heaven will not fail to visit you with an enlarged revelation of truth and an enhanced demonstration of righteousness, even as he has already bestowed upon this world him who became the prince of darkness, and then Adam, who was followed by Melchizedek, and in these days, the Son of Man. And so will my Father continue to manifest his mercy and show forth his love, even to this dark and evil world. So also will I, after my Father has invested me with all power and authority, continue to follow your fortunes and to guide in the affairs of the kingdom by the presence of my spirit, who shall shortly be poured out upon all flesh. Even though I shall thus be present with you in spirit, I also promise that I will sometime return to this world, where I have lived this life in the flesh and achieved the experience of simultaneously revealing God to man and leading man to God. Very soon must I leave you and take up the work the Father has intrusted to my hands, but be of good courage, for I will sometime return. In the meantime, my Spirit of the Truth of a universe shall comfort and guide you.

176:2.4 "You behold me now in weakness and in the flesh, but when I return, it shall be with power and in the spirit. The eye of flesh beholds the Son of Man in the flesh, but only the eye of the spirit will behold the Son of Man glorified by the Father and appearing on earth in his own name.

176:2.5 "But the times of the reappearing of the Son of Man are known only in the councils of Paradise; not even the angels of heaven know when this will occur. However, you should understand that, when this gospel of the kingdom shall have been proclaimed to all the world for the salvation of all peoples, and when the fullness of the age has come to pass, the Father will send you another dispensational bestowal, or else the Son of Man will return to adjudge the age.

176:2.6 "And now concerning the travail of Jerusalem, about which I have spoken to you, even this generation will not pass away until my words are fulfilled; but concerning the times of the coming again of the Son of Man, no one in heaven or on earth may presume to speak. But you should be wise regarding the ripening of an age; you should be alert to discern the signs of the times. You know when the fig tree shows its tender branches and puts forth its leaves that summer is near. Likewise, when the world has passed through the long winter of material-mindedness and you discern the coming of the spiritual springtime of a new dispensation, should you know that the summertime of a new visitation draws near.

176:2.7 "But what is the significance of this teaching having to do with the coming of the Sons of God? Do you not perceive that, when each of you is called to lay down his life struggle and pass through the portal of death, you stand in the immediate presence of judgment, and that you are face to face with the facts of a new dispensation of service in the eternal plan of the infinite Father? What the whole world must face as a literal fact at the end of an age, you, as individuals, must each most certainly face as a personal experience when you reach the end of your natural life and thereby pass on to be confronted with the conditions and demands inherent in the next revelation of the eternal progression of the Father's kingdom."


176:2.8 Of all the discourses which the Master gave his apostles, none ever became so confused in their minds as this one, given this Tuesday evening on the Mount of Olives, regarding the twofold subject of the destruction of Jerusalem and his own second coming. There was, therefore, little agreement between the subsequent written accounts based on the memories of what the Master said on this extraordinary occasion. Consequently, when the records were left blank concerning much that was said that Tuesday evening, there grew up many traditions; and very early in the second century a Jewish apocalyptic about the Messiah written by one Selta, who was attached to the court of the Emperor Caligula, was bodily copied into the Matthew Gospel and subsequently added (in part) to the Mark and Luke records. It was in these writings of Selta that the parable of the ten virgins appeared. No part of the gospel record ever suffered such confusing misconstruction as this evening's teaching. But the Apostle John never became thus confused.

176:2.9 As these thirteen men resumed their journey toward the camp, they were speechless and under great emotional tension. Judas had finally confirmed his decision to abandon his associates. It was a late hour when David Zebedee, John Mark, and a number of the leading disciples welcomed Jesus and the twelve to the new camp, but the apostles did not want to sleep; they wanted to know more about the destruction of Jerusalem, the Master's departure, and the end of the world.


CONT>
 

Caino

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Banned
LATER DISCUSSION AT THE CAMP

176:3.1 As they gathered about the campfire, some twenty of them, Thomas asked: "Since you are to return to finish the work of the kingdom, what should be our attitude while you are away on the Father's business?" As Jesus looked them over by the firelight, he answered:

176:3.2 "And even you, Thomas, fail to comprehend what I have been saying. Have I not all this time taught you that your connection with the kingdom is spiritual and individual, wholly a matter of personal experience in the spirit by the faith-realization that you are a son of God? What more shall I say? The downfall of nations, the crash of empires, the destruction of the unbelieving Jews, the end of an age, even the end of the world, what have these things to do with one who believes this gospel, and who has hid his life in the surety of the eternal kingdom? You who are God-knowing and gospel-believing have already received the assurances of eternal life. Since your lives have been lived in the spirit and for the Father, nothing can be of serious concern to you. Kingdom builders, the accredited citizens of the heavenly worlds, are not to be disturbed by temporal upheavals or perturbed by terrestrial cataclysms. What does it matter to you who believe this gospel of the kingdom if nations overturn, the age ends, or all things visible crash, since you know that your life is the gift of the Son, and that it is eternally secure in the Father? Having lived the temporal life by faith and having yielded the fruits of the spirit as the righteousness of loving service for your fellows, you can confidently look forward to the next step in the eternal career with the same survival faith that has carried you through your first and earthly adventure in sonship with God.

176:3.3 "Each generation of believers should carry on their work, in view of the possible return of the Son of Man, exactly as each individual believer carries forward his lifework in view of inevitable and ever-impending natural death. When you have by faith once established yourself as a son of God, nothing else matters as regards the surety of survival. But make no mistake! this survival faith is a living faith, and it increasingly manifests the fruits of that divine spirit which first inspired it in the human heart. That you have once accepted sonship in the heavenly kingdom will not save you in the face of the knowing and persistent rejection of those truths which have to do with the progressive spiritual fruit-bearing of the sons of God in the flesh. You who have been with me in the Father's business on earth can even now desert the kingdom if you find that you love not the way of the Father's service for mankind.

176:3.4 "As individuals, and as a generation of believers, hear me while I speak a parable: There was a certain great man who, before starting out on a long journey to another country, called all his trusted servants before him and delivered into their hands all his goods. To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one. And so on down through the entire group of honored stewards, to each he intrusted his goods according to their several abilities; and then he set out on his journey. When their lord had departed, his servants set themselves at work to gain profits from the wealth intrusted to them. Immediately he who had received five talents began to trade with them and very soon had made a profit of another five talents. In like manner he who had received two talents soon had gained two more. And so did all of these servants make gains for their master except him who received but one talent. He went away by himself and dug a hole in the earth where he hid his lord's money. Presently the lord of those servants unexpectedly returned and called upon his stewards for a reckoning. And when they had all been called before their master, he who had received the five talents came forward with the money which had been intrusted to him and brought five additional talents, saying, `Lord, you gave me five talents to invest, and I am glad to present five other talents as my gain.' And then his lord said to him: `Well done, good and faithful servant, you have been faithful over a few things; I will now set you as steward over many; enter forthwith into the joy of your lord.' And then he who had received the two talents came forward, saying: `Lord, you delivered into my hands two talents; behold, I have gained these other two talents.' And his lord then said to him: `Well done, good and faithful steward; you also have been faithful over a few things, and I will now set you over many; enter you into the joy of your lord.' And then there came to the accounting he who had received the one talent. This servant came forward, saying, `Lord, I knew you and realized that you were a shrewd man in that you expected gains where you had not personally labored; therefore was I afraid to risk aught of that which was intrusted to me. I safely hid your talent in the earth; here it is; you now have what belongs to you.' But his lord answered: `You are an indolent and slothful steward. By your own words you confess that you knew I would require of you an accounting with reasonable profit, such as your diligent fellow servants have this day rendered. Knowing this, you ought, therefore, to have at least put my money into the hands of the bankers that on my return I might have received my own with interest.' And then to the chief steward this lord said: `Take away this one talent from this unprofitable servant and give it to him who has the ten talents.'

176:3.5 "To every one who has, more shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him who has not, even that which he has shall be taken away. You cannot stand still in the affairs of the eternal kingdom. My Father requires all his children to grow in grace and in a knowledge of the truth. You who know these truths must yield the increase of the fruits of the spirit and manifest a growing devotion to the unselfish service of your fellow servants. And remember that, inasmuch as you minister to one of the least of my brethren, you have done this service to me.

176:3.6 "And so should you go about the work of the Father's business, now and henceforth, even forevermore. Carry on until I come. In faithfulness do that which is intrusted to you, and thereby shall you be ready for the reckoning call of death. And having thus lived for the glory of the Father and the satisfaction of the Son, you shall enter with joy and exceedingly great pleasure into the eternal service of the everlasting kingdom."


176:3.7 Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service. You are not given truth to crystallize into settled, safe, and honored forms. Your revelation of truth must be so enhanced by passing through your personal experience that new beauty and actual spiritual gains will be disclosed to all who behold your spiritual fruits and in consequence thereof are led to glorify the Father who is in heaven. Only those faithful servants who thus grow in the knowledge of the truth, and who thereby develop the capacity for divine appreciation of spiritual realities, can ever hope to "enter fully into the joy of their Lord." What a sorry sight for successive generations of the professed followers of Jesus to say, regarding their stewardship of divine truth: "Here, Master, is the truth you committed to us a hundred or a thousand years ago. We have lost nothing; we have faithfully preserved all you gave us; we have allowed no changes to be made in that which you taught us; here is the truth you gave us." But such a plea concerning spiritual indolence will not justify the barren steward of truth in the presence of the Master. In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require a reckoning.

176:3.8 In the next world you will be asked to give an account of the endowments and stewardships of this world. Whether inherent talents are few or many, a just and merciful reckoning must be faced. If endowments are used only in selfish pursuits and no thought is bestowed upon the higher duty of obtaining increased yield of the fruits of the spirit, as they are manifested in the ever-expanding service of men and the worship of God, such selfish stewards must accept the consequences of their deliberate choosing.

176:3.9 And how much like all selfish mortals was this unfaithful servant with the one talent in that he blamed his slothfulness directly upon his lord. How prone is man, when he is confronted with the failures of his own making, to put the blame upon others, oftentimes upon those who least deserve it!

176:3.10 Said Jesus that night as they went to their rest: "Freely have you received; therefore freely should you give of the truth of heaven, and in the giving will this truth multiply and show forth the increasing light of saving grace, even as you minister it."


Caino
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
2nd coming........

2nd coming........

"The Sons of the next order to arrive on the average evolutionary world are the Trinity Teacher Sons, the divine Sons of the Paradise Trinity. Again we find Urantia out of step with its sister spheres in that your Jesus has promised to return. That promise he will certainly fulfill, but no one knows whether his second coming will precede or follow the appearances of Magisterial or Teacher Sons on Urantia."​


THE MASTER'S SECOND COMING

176:2.1 On several occasions Jesus had made statements which led his hearers to infer that, while he intended presently to leave this world, he would most certainly return to consummate the work of the heavenly kingdom. As the conviction grew on his followers that he was going to leave them, and after he had departed from this world, it was only natural for all believers to lay fast hold upon these promises to return. The doctrine of the second coming of Christ thus became early incorporated into the teachings of the Christians, and almost every subsequent generation of disciples has devoutly believed this truth and has confidently looked forward to his sometime coming.

176:2.2 If they were to part with their Master and Teacher, how much more did these first disciples and the apostles grasp at this promise to return, and they lost no time in associating the predicted destruction of destruction of Jerusalem with this promised second coming. And they continued thus to interpret his words notwithstanding that, throughout this evening of instruction on Mount Olivet, the Master took particular pains to prevent just such a mistake.

176:2.3 In further answer to Peter's question, Jesus said: "Why do you still look for the Son of Man to sit upon the throne of David and expect that the material dreams of the Jews will be fulfilled? Have I not told you all these years that my kingdom is not of this world? The things which you now look down upon are coming to an end, but this will be a new beginning out of which the gospel of the kingdom will go to all the world and this salvation will spread to all peoples. And when the kingdom shall have come to its full fruition, be assured that the Father in heaven will not fail to visit you with an enlarged revelation of truth and an enhanced demonstration of righteousness, even as he has already bestowed upon this world him who became the prince of darkness, and then Adam, who was followed by Melchizedek, and in these days, the Son of Man. And so will my Father continue to manifest his mercy and show forth his love, even to this dark and evil world. So also will I, after my Father has invested me with all power and authority, continue to follow your fortunes and to guide in the affairs of the kingdom by the presence of my spirit, who shall shortly be poured out upon all flesh. Even though I shall thus be present with you in spirit, I also promise that I will sometime return to this world, where I have lived this life in the flesh and achieved the experience of simultaneously revealing God to man and leading man to God. Very soon must I leave you and take up the work the Father has intrusted to my hands, but be of good courage, for I will sometime return. In the meantime, my Spirit of the Truth of a universe shall comfort and guide you.

176:2.4 "You behold me now in weakness and in the flesh, but when I return, it shall be with power and in the spirit. The eye of flesh beholds the Son of Man in the flesh, but only the eye of the spirit will behold the Son of Man glorified by the Father and appearing on earth in his own name.



Hi Caino,

It appears according to the UB that Jesus coming will be in the power and knowledge of the Spirit, something that will be seen with the 'spiritual eye' only. It seems that this may indicate a more spiritual 'coming' of divine recognition, at least concerning an individual's knowledge of Jesus second coming, yet this could just refer to the Spirit of truth or Holy Spirit, unless there is some distinguished and unique knoweldge of Jesus as the Creator-Son and Sovereign Lord of this world that is communicated, thru an actual 'form'. Do you understand his second coming then, besides its spiritual precedence....being of an actual bodily nature or appearance, as an actual Man again walking this earth as other men during his visitation? I'm also wondering if this comes later in our planets evolution when it is nearing the stage of Light and Life...when souls will be more spiritually attuned to recognize the Creator-Son when he returns. Its one thing to have the spirit-presence of 'God' within, and another to have the actual Creator-Son present on earth as he was in his first bestowal, but glorified to a greater degree in his ascended form.


pj
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
176:3.7 Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service. You are not given truth to crystallize into settled, safe, and honored forms. Your revelation of truth must be so enhanced by passing through your personal experience that new beauty and actual spiritual gains will be disclosed to all who behold your spiritual fruits and in consequence thereof are led to glorify the Father who is in heaven. Only those faithful servants who thus grow in the knowledge of the truth, and who thereby develop the capacity for divine appreciation of spiritual realities, can ever hope to "enter fully into the joy of their Lord."

:thumb:

Since truth is a living dynamic of actual and potentializing reality....its movement in space/time unfolds or evolves with those perceptions that are contextualized within space/time.


pj
 

Lost Comet

New member
In another thread I mentioned how disparate thoughts can suddenly meld together in such a way as to overwhelm the senses. The two I had particularly in mind were “The living God is the divine light whose interruptions constitute the creation shadows of all space” (1124.4) 102:6.2 and “decoherence” in physics. Of the others I listed, “Self-consciousness is in essence a communal consciousness: God and man, Father and son, Creator and creature” (196.5) 16:9.9 completes the melding.

Sorry.....I wanted to say more but I just wind-up staring at the screen not knowing where or how to begin. :dead:
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
In another thread I mentioned how disparate thoughts can suddenly meld together in such a way as to overwhelm the senses. The two I had particularly in mind were “The living God is the divine light whose interruptions constitute the creation shadows of all space” (1124.4) 102:6.2 and “decoherence” in physics. Of the others I listed, “Self-consciousness is in essence a communal consciousness: God and man, Father and son, Creator and creature” (196.5) 16:9.9 completes the melding.

Sorry.....I wanted to say more but I just wind-up staring at the screen not knowing where or how to begin. :dead:

Yes, was just going to share your post with comments here, since the thread you posted it on...was certainly on another wave-length. Careful where you post :) - nothing like a waft of wind going over the heads of others.....


pj
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
light and shadow..............

light and shadow..............

Lost Comet wrote:

Sometimes disparate thoughts meld together in such a way as to overwhelm the senses. When this happens, it brings about a new vision of reality. “The living God is the divine light whose interruptions constitute the creation shadows of all space” (1124.4) 102:6.2 and “decoherence” (physics) came together for me in such a manner.

This is a wonderful quote mirroring also the theme of 'light' and 'darkness',...wherein within the totality, the differentiation of space/time dimensions casts shadows in finite space as 'castings' from the infinite light of pure Deity. In other words,...since all creation springs from the pure light of God,...this living reality alone is pure light, knowledge, awareness, conscious Being...while all else are the shadows of light, cast in finite space, and the limited intellect of man, hence within these shadows lies illusion, false gods, images, concepts, etc. In the realm of duality or relating creation,...there is both light and shadow, the absolute and relative. The pure knowledge of God is undifferentiated as Light itself, while all fractions expressed as informing movements are the play of light as relative perceptions.


pj
 

Lost Comet

New member
The quantum connection between God and man is fairly obvious to me, undoubtedly because of the many books like The Quantum Enigma and The Self-Aware Universe I’ve read. When I read, “The living God is the divine light whose interruptions constitute the creation shadows of all space,” I immediately see “interruptions” and “decoherence” as the same thing.

Science cannot observe, measure or detect in any way what transpires between observations. A “wave function” has never been seen. If a transcendent reality exists, it is there, between observations.

(196.5) 16:9.9 Self-consciousness is in essence a communal consciousness: God and man, Father and son, Creator and creature.

(29.7) 1:6.1 Human personality is the time-space image-shadow cast by the divine Creator personality.

(70.5) 5:6.4 There is no personality apart from God the Father, and no personality exists except for God the Father.

(71.4) 5:6.9 The bestowal of creature personality confers relative liberation from slavish response to antecedent causation, and the personalities of all such moral beings, evolutionary or otherwise, are centered in the personality of the Universal Father.

(613.6) 54:1.4 Liberty is nonexistent apart from cosmic reality, and all personality reality is proportional to its divinity relationships.
This has an immediate effect on the popular conception of free will. We are not discretely free -- individuals; we are almost entirely mechanistic. Freedom is proportional to identification with Oneness.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
One Still Light, and its movements in space/time.....

One Still Light, and its movements in space/time.....

The quantum connection between God and man is fairly obvious to me, undoubtedly because of the many books like The Quantum Enigma and The Self-Aware Universe I’ve read. When I read, “The living God is the divine light whose interruptions constitute the creation shadows of all space,” I immediately see “interruptions” and “decoherence” as the same thing.

Science cannot observe, measure or detect in any way what transpires between observations. A “wave function” has never been seen. If a transcendent reality exists, it is there, between observations.

And yet the wave-function is the secret of creation. Have you seen my Walter Russell thread? - a true pioneer in these fields. I'd still like to get his book, 'The Secret of Light'.
Interesting how particles and waves interact. May have to look more into 'decoherence' theory. Russell used the word 'decentration' as a method of meditation, as opposed to 'concentration',...could be some parallels.

Also if 'God' is the One Still Light behind all creation, the space-like Awareness wherein all movements appear and relate...then creation is the Light refractualizing...as it were. - The Undifferentiated One differententiating itself via 'translation', - such is the emergence of all space/time relativity,....God at play. Life is Infinite Intelligence(Mind),...and the movements of thought(logos).

Life is energy relating in-form-ation.


pj
 

Lost Comet

New member
The analogy I use is that God is the light on the other side of the cosmic prism: in the spectrum of his light we live, move and have our being.
 

One Truth

New member
I used to believe in the "physical" Second Coming. I think the reason I don't anymore is that I have realized that even the First Coming of the Christ was spiritually manifest in one unique body (Michael/Jesus) and, as according to The Urantia Book, Jesus said that in order that He might be "available" to ALL He must first return to the Father. He did that and now He (the Christ Consciousness - the Spirit of Jesus) dwells within each. The manifestation of the Christ in ALL will only come when ALL Awaken to His Presence. Light can only be manifest in an Awakened State of Consciousness... Being "Asleep" is analogous to being in Darkness (Unconscious). The more we (humans) Awaken the more His appearing is made manifest. Awake! He is already here!
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Blessings in the Christ-light......

Blessings in the Christ-light......

I used to believe in the "physical" Second Coming. I think the reason I don't anymore is that I have realized that even the First Coming of the Christ was spiritually manifest in one unique body (Michael/Jesus) and, as according to The Urantia Book, Jesus said that in order that He might be "available" to ALL He must first return to the Father. He did that and now He (the Christ Consciousness - the Spirit of Jesus) dwells within each. The manifestation of the Christ in ALL will only come when ALL Awaken to His Presence. Light can only be manifest in an Awakened State of Consciousness... Being "Asleep" is analogous to being in Darkness (Unconscious). The more we (humans) Awaken the more His appearing is made manifest. Awake! He is already here!


To all my fellow Urantians,.....Happy Easter! The Resurrection of the Lord reminds us of our own resurrection and immortality-potential.

May this weekend be rich with new insight, meaning and value....and enjoy the Spring season, as mother Earth regenerates her life-force. May truth, goodness and beauty prevail....................


pj
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
There has been much discussion as of late about the concept of "one world government". Christians have erroneously been lead to fear it as have some relation to the beast. The 50 U.S states have found that we can leave peaceably under one federal union. A world of nation states, government by the people, for the people would function in much the same way.The UB on the topic of one world government:

POLITICAL SOVEREIGNTY​

134:5.1 [While the Master's teaching concerning the sovereignty of God is a truth—only complicated by the subsequent appearance of the religion about him among the world's religions—his presentations concerning political sovereignty are vastly complicated by the political evolution of nation life during the last nineteen hundred years and more. In the times of Jesus there were only two great world powers—the Roman Empire in the West and the Han Empire in the East—and these were widely separated by the Parthian kingdom and other intervening lands of the Caspian and Turkestan regions. We have, therefore, in the following presentation departed more widely from the substance of the Master's teachings at Urmia concerning political sovereignty, at the same time attempting to depict the import of such teachings as they are applicable to the peculiarly critical stage of the evolution of political sovereignty in the twentieth century after Christ.]

134:5.2 War on Urantia will never end so long as nations cling to the illusive notions of unlimited national sovereignty. There are only two levels of relative sovereignty on an inhabited world: the spiritual free will of the individual mortal and the collective sovereignty of mankind as a whole. Between the level of the individual human being and the level of the total of mankind, all groupings and associations are relative, transitory, and of value only in so far as they enhance the welfare, well-being, and progress of the individual and the planetary grand total—man and mankind.

134:5.3 Religious teachers must always remember that the spiritual sovereignty of God overrides all intervening and intermediate spiritual loyalties. Someday civil rulers will learn that the Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of men.

134:5.4 This rule of the Most Highs in the kingdoms of men is not for the especial benefit of any especially favored group of mortals. There is no such thing as a "chosen people." The rule of the Most Highs, the overcontrollers of political evolution, is a rule designed to foster the greatest good to the greatest number of all men and for the greatest length of time.

134:5.5 Sovereignty is power and it grows by organization. This growth of the organization of political power is good and proper, for it tends to encompass ever-widening segments of the total of mankind. But this same growth of political organizations creates a problem at every intervening stage between the initial and natural organization of political power—the family—and the final consummation of political growth—the government of all mankind, by all mankind, and for all mankind.

134:5.6 Starting out with parental power in the family group, political sovereignty evolves by organization as families overlap into consanguineous clans which become united, for various reasons, into tribal units—superconsanguineous political groupings. And then, by trade, commerce, and conquest, tribes become unified as a nation, while nations themselves sometimes become unified by empire.

134:5.7 As sovereignty passes from smaller groups to larger groups, wars are lessened. That is, minor wars between smaller nations are lessened, but the potential for greater wars is increased as the nations wielding sovereignty become larger and larger. Presently, when all the world has been explored and occupied, when nations are few, strong, and powerful, when these great and supposedly sovereign nations come to touch borders, when only oceans separate them, then will the stage be set for major wars, world-wide conflicts. So-called sovereign nations cannot rub elbows without generating conflicts and eventuating wars.

134:5.8 The difficulty in the evolution of political sovereignty from the family to all mankind, lies in the inertia-resistance exhibited on all intervening levels. Families have, on occasion, defied their clan, while clans and tribes have often been subversive of the sovereignty of the territorial state. Each new and forward evolution of political sovereignty is (and has always been) embarrassed and hampered by the "scaffolding stages" of the previous developments in political organization. And this is true because human loyalties, once mobilized, are hard to change. The same loyalty which makes possible the evolution of the tribe, makes difficult the evolution of the supertribe—the territorial state. And the same loyalty (patriotism) which makes possible the evolution of the territorial state, vastly complicates the evolutionary development of the government of all mankind.

134:5.9 Political sovereignty is created out of the surrender of self-determinism, first by the individual within the family and then by the families and clans in relation to the tribe and larger groupings. This progressive transfer of self-determination from the smaller to ever larger political organizations has generally proceeded unabated in the East since the establishment of the Ming and the Mogul dynasties. In the West it obtained for more than a thousand years right on down to the end of the World War, when an unfortunate retrograde movement temporarily reversed this normal trend by re-establishing the submerged political sovereignty of numerous small groups in Europe.

134:5.10 Urantia will not enjoy lasting peace until the so-called sovereign nations intelligently and fully surrender their sovereign powers into the hands of the brotherhood of men—mankind government. Internationalism—Leagues of Nations—can never bring permanent peace to mankind. World-wide confederations of nations will effectively prevent minor wars and acceptably control the smaller nations, but they will not prevent world wars nor control the three, four, or five most powerful governments. In the face of real conflicts, one of these world powers will withdraw from the League and declare war. You cannot prevent nations going to war as long as they remain infected with the delusional virus of national sovereignty. Internationalism is a step in the right direction. An international police force will prevent many minor wars, but it will not be effective in preventing major wars, conflicts between the great military governments of earth.

134:5.11 As the number of truly sovereign nations (great powers) decreases, so do both opportunity and need for mankind government increase. When there are only a few really sovereign (great) powers, either they must embark on the life and death struggle for national (imperial) supremacy, or else, by voluntary surrender of certain prerogatives of sovereignty, they must create the essential nucleus of supernational power which will serve as the beginning of the real sovereignty of all mankind.

134:5.12 Peace will not come to Urantia until every so-called sovereign nation surrenders its power to make war into the hands of a representative government of all mankind. Political sovereignty is innate with the peoples of the world. When all the peoples of Urantia create a world government, they have the right and the power to make such a government SOVEREIGN; and when such a representative or democratic world power controls the world's land, air, and naval forces, peace on earth and good will among men can prevail—but not until then.

134:5.13 To use an important nineteenth- and twentieth-century illustration: The forty-eight states of the American Federal Union have long enjoyed peace. They have no more wars among themselves. They have surrendered their sovereignty to the federal government, and through the arbitrament of war, they have abandoned all claims to the delusions of self-determination. While each state regulates its internal affairs, it is not concerned with foreign relations, tariffs, immigration, military affairs, or interstate commerce. Neither do the individual states concern themselves with matters of citizenship. The forty-eight states suffer the ravages of war only when the federal government's sovereignty is in some way jeopardized.

134:5.14 These forty-eight states, having abandoned the twin sophistries of sovereignty and self-determination, enjoy interstate peace and tranquillity. So will the nations of Urantia begin to enjoy peace when they freely surrender their respective sovereignties into the hands of a global government—the sovereignty of the brotherhood of men. In this world state the small nations will be as powerful as the great, even as the small state of Rhode Island has its two senators in the American Congress just the same as the populous state of New York or the large state of Texas.

134:5.15 The limited (state) sovereignty of these forty-eight states was created by men and for men. The superstate (national) sovereignty of the American Federal Union was created by the original thirteen of these states for their own benefit and for the benefit of men. Sometime the supernational sovereignty of the planetary government of mankind will be similarly created by nations for their own benefit and for the benefit of all men.

134:5.16 Citizens are not born for the benefit of governments; governments are organizations created and devised for the benefit of men. There can be no end to the evolution of political sovereignty short of the appearance of the government of the sovereignty of all men. All other sovereignties are relative in value, intermediate in meaning, and subordinate in status.

134:5.17 With scientific progress, wars are going to become more and more devastating until they become almost racially suicidal. How many world wars must be fought and how many leagues of nations must fail before men will be willing to establish the government of mankind and begin to enjoy the blessings of permanent peace and thrive on the tranquillity of good will—world-wide good will—among men?



Caino
 

Aimiel

New member
Government of / by / for the people is dead. The elected officials go along with the 'political correctness' of the world and kill legislation enacted by popular vote because it isn't our government, it belongs to the special interests. Special interests like the UN, NATO and world opinion, all of which are driven by corporate greed, not the best interest of the populace.
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
Government of / by / for the people is dead. The elected officials go along with the 'political correctness' of the world and kill legislation enacted by popular vote because it isn't our government, it belongs to the special interests. Special interests like the UN, NATO and world opinion, all of which are driven by corporate greed, not the best interest of the populace.

I agree somewhat with that, but things can and will change when the people have had enough of the game. To be more specific, government is just a reflection of the state of the people.


The first thing that needs reform is the church, then perhaps the people will fallow.


WEAKNESS OF INSTITUTIONAL RELIGION

99:2.1 Institutional religion cannot afford inspiration and provide leadership in this impending world-wide social reconstruction and economic reorganization because it has unfortunately become more or less of an organic part of the social order and the economic system which is destined to undergo reconstruction. Only the real religion of personal spiritual experience can function helpfully and creatively in the present crisis of civilization.

99:2.2 Institutional religion is now caught in the stalemate of a vicious circle. It cannot reconstruct society without first reconstructing itself; and being so much an integral part of the established order, it cannot reconstruct itself until society has been radically reconstructed.

99:2.3 Religionists must function in society, in industry, and in politics as individuals, not as groups, parties, or institutions. A religious group which presumes to function as such, apart from religious activities, immediately becomes a political party, an economic organization, or a social institution. Religious collectivism must confine its efforts to the furtherance of religious causes.

99:2.4 Religionists are of no more value in the tasks of social reconstruction than nonreligionists except in so far as their religion has conferred upon them enhanced cosmic foresight and endowed them with that superior social wisdom which is born of the sincere desire to love God supremely and to love every man as a brother in the heavenly kingdom. An ideal social order is that in which every man loves his neighbor as he loves himself.

99:2.5 The institutionalized church may have appeared to serve society in the past by glorifying the established political and economic orders, but it must speedily cease such action if it is to survive. Its only proper attitude consists in the teaching of nonviolence, the doctrine of peaceful evolution in the place of violent revolution—peace on earth and good will among all men.

99:2.6 Modern religion finds it difficult to adjust its attitude toward the rapidly shifting social changes only because it has permitted itself to become so thoroughly traditionalized, dogmatized, and institutionalized. The religion of living experience finds no difficulty in keeping ahead of all these social developments and economic upheavals, amid which it ever functions as a moral stabilizer, social guide, and spiritual pilot. True religion carries over from one age to another the worth-while culture and that wisdom which is born of the experience of knowing God and striving to be like him.
"UB


Caino
 

Aimiel

New member
I agree somewhat with that, but things can and will change when the people have had enough of the game. To be more specific, government is just a reflection of the state of the people. The first thing that needs reform is the church, then perhaps the people will fallow.
The government of the United States was designed to be a government which can be directed by the electorate. The representatives must be held accountable, rather than letting them dictate our reality. It's gotten way out-of-hand, and people the world over are revolting against oppression. We don't have to stand idly by and watch as our government takes our hard-earned pay and does what they please with it. We have the right to protest and correct our representatives, and it will change as we do so.

God knows how to chasten those who love Him. Those who pretend to be 'His' but aren't simply aren't subject to His Authority. They will do as they please and totally ignore His Word. That will never change. The biggest change is there are fewer and fewer who are truly His.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
government.....

government.....

134:5.10 Urantia will not enjoy lasting peace until the so-called sovereign nations intelligently and fully surrender their sovereign powers into the hands of the brotherhood of men—mankind government. Internationalism—Leagues of Nations—can never bring permanent peace to mankind.

134:5.12 Peace will not come to Urantia until every so-called sovereign nation surrenders its power to make war into the hands of a representative government of all mankind. Political sovereignty is innate with the peoples of the world. When all the peoples of Urantia create a world government, they have the right and the power to make such a government SOVEREIGN; and when such a representative or democratic world power controls the world's land, air, and naval forces, peace on earth and good will among men can prevail—but not until then.


134:5.16 Citizens are not born for the benefit of governments; governments are organizations created and devised for the benefit of men. There can be no end to the evolution of political sovereignty short of the appearance of the government of the sovereignty of all men. All other sovereignties are relative in value, intermediate in meaning, and subordinate in status.

134:5.17 With scientific progress, wars are going to become more and more devastating until they become almost racially suicidal. How many world wars must be fought and how many leagues of nations must fail before men will be willing to establish the government of mankind and begin to enjoy the blessings of permanent peace and thrive on the tranquillity of good will—world-wide good will—among men?

Caino


:thumb:

Interestingly,...many believe a coming one-world government will be headed by 'The Anti-Christ', the Beast, and the satanic world powers, yet the UB appears to teach that the principles of righteousness and the ideals of the kingdom of God can progress in their fruition and effectiveness within a true democracy upholding the sovereignty of man (united within a global government), maintaining justice and peace, restoring true power to mankind according to the constitution of man's own original purpose and destiny in divine providence.

Much of the prophecy teaching within traditional protestant pop-theology on the 'end times' focuses on the Book of Revelation and other key scriptures (Daniel, some of the gospels) charting what is supposed to happen, yet granted the cryptic nature of the metaphors within such apocalyptic literature, we also have the factor of 'belief' inspiring a kind self-fulfilling prophecy, as such a belief-systems affect how things unfold, some actually helping things along, even though these things may not really be in tune with the divine will, but a projection of the mind.

In any case,...there's nothing like good practical old fashioned common sense, diplomacy and intelligent directives for the common good, integrity and prosperity for all peoples, that a collective council representing the interests of mankind can join to bring about.


pj
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
There has been much discussion on the board about judgment and forgiveness, I thought I would post this sermon from Jesus on the matter:



1. THE SERMON ON FORGIVENESS​

159:1.1 One evening at Hippos, in answer to a disciple's question, Jesus taught the lesson on forgiveness. Said the Master:

159:1.2"If a kindhearted man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, does he not immediately leave the ninety and nine and go out in search of the one that has gone astray? And if he is a good shepherd, will he not keep up his quest for the lost sheep until he finds it? And then, when the shepherd has found his lost sheep, he lays it over his shoulder and, going home rejoicing, calls to his friends and neighbors, `Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.' I declare that there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety and nine righteous persons who need no repentance. Even so, it is not the will of my Father in heaven that one of these little ones should go astray, much less that they should perish. In your religion God may receive repentant sinners; in the gospel of the kingdom the Father goes forth to find them even before they have seriously thought of repentance.

159:1.3"The Father in heaven loves his children, and therefore should you learn to love one another; the Father in heaven forgives you your sins; therefore should you learn to forgive one another. If your brother sins against you, go to him and with tact and patience show him his fault. And do all this between you and him alone. If he will listen to you, then have you won your brother. But if your brother will not hear you, if he persists in the error of his way, go again to him, taking with you one or two mutual friends that you may thus have two or even three witnesses to confirm your testimony and establish the fact that you have dealt justly and mercifully with your offending brother. Now if he refuses to hear your brethren, you may tell the whole story to the congregation, and then, if he refuses to hear the brotherhood, let them take such action as they deem wise; let such an unruly member become an outcast from the kingdom. While you cannot pretend to sit in judgment on the souls of your fellows, and while you may not forgive sins or otherwise presume to usurp the prerogatives of the supervisors of the heavenly hosts, at the same time, it has been committed to your hands that you should maintain temporal order in the kingdom on earth. While you may not meddle with the divine decrees concerning eternal life, you shall determine the issues of conduct as they concern the temporal welfare of the brotherhood on earth. And so, in all these matters connected with the discipline of the brotherhood, whatsoever you shall decree on earth shall be recognized in heaven. Although you cannot determine the eternal fate of the individual, you may legislate regarding the conduct of the group, for, where two or three of you agree concerning any of these things and ask of me, it shall be done for you if your petition is not inconsistent with the will of my Father in heaven. And all this is ever true, for, where two or three believers are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them."

159:1.4 Simon Peter was the apostle in charge of the workers at Hippos, and when he heard Jesus thus speak, he asked: "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Until seven times?" And Jesus answered Peter: "Not only seven times but even to seventy times and seven. Therefore may the kingdom of heaven be likened to a certain king who ordered a financial reckoning with his stewards. And when they had begun to conduct this examination of accounts, one of his chief retainers was brought before him confessing that he owed his king ten thousand talents. Now this officer of the king's court pleaded that hard times had come upon him, and that he did not have wherewith to pay this obligation. And so the king commanded that his property be confiscated, and that his children be sold to pay his debt. When this chief steward heard this stern decree, he fell down on his face before the king and implored him to have mercy and grant him more time, saying, `Lord, have a little more patience with me, and I will pay you all.' And when the king looked upon this negligent servant and his family, he was moved with compassion. He ordered that he should be released, and that the loan should be wholly forgiven.

159:1.5"And this chief steward, having thus received mercy and forgiveness at the hands of the king, went about his business, and finding one of his subordinate stewards who owed him a mere hundred denarii, he laid hold upon him and, taking him by the throat, said, `Pay me all you owe.' And then did this fellow steward fall down before the chief steward and, beseeching him, said: `Only have patience with me, and I will presently be able to pay you.' But the chief steward would not show mercy to his fellow steward but rather had him cast in prison until he should pay his debt. When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were so distressed that they went and told their lord and master, the king. When the king heard of the doings of his chief steward, he called this ungrateful and unforgiving man before him and said: `You are a wicked and unworthy steward. When you sought for compassion, I freely forgave you your entire debt. Why did you not also show mercy to your fellow steward, even as I showed mercy to you?' And the king was so very angry that he delivered his ungrateful chief steward to the jailers that they might hold him until he had paid all that was due. And even so shall my heavenly Father show the more abundant mercy to those who freely show mercy to their fellows. How can you come to God asking consideration for your shortcomings when you are wont to chastise your brethren for being guilty of these same human frailties? I say to all of you: Freely you have received the good things of the kingdom; therefore freely give to your fellows on earth."


159:1.6 Thus did Jesus teach the dangers and illustrate the unfairness of sitting in personal judgment upon one's fellows. Discipline must be maintained, justice must be administered, but in all these matters the wisdom of the brotherhood should prevail. Jesus invested legislative and judicial authority in the group, not in the individual. Even this investment of authority in the group must not be exercised as personal authority. There is always danger that the verdict of an individual may be warped by prejudice or distorted by passion. Group judgment is more likely to remove the dangers and eliminate the unfairness of personal bias. Jesus sought always to minimize the elements of unfairness, retaliation, and vengeance.

156:1.7 [The use of the term seventy-seven as an illustration of mercy and forbearance was derived from the Scriptures referring to Lamech's exultation because of the metal weapons of his son Tubal-Cain, who, comparing these superior instruments with those of his enemies, exclaimed: "If Cain, with no weapon in his hand, was avenged seven times, I shall now be avenged seventy-seven."]
 
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