Wick Stick
Well-known member
Go ask them; they'll give it to you straight.
If you think not, you haven't got outside your church walls enough.
ECT The House of Israel and the House of Judah Will Be a Blessing
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
If you think not, you haven't got outside your church walls enough.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So the Lord Jesus is the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah" and He was also a curse among the heathen:
"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing" (Zech.8:8,13).
How could the Lord Jesus be a curse among the heathen when He wasn't even on the earth when that prophecy was written?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
James quoted from the Greek version of the OT (the Septuigant), but with a slight modification. Here are the verses from the Septuigant :
"In that day will I raise up again the tabernacle of David that is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up...That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things." (Amos 9:11-12; Septuigant).
James replaced the words "in that day" with the following words:
"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:16).
Who else but the Lord Jesus can build up the tabernacle of David when He returns? James believed that this prophecy of Amos will not be fulfilled until after the Lord Jesus returns.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
There are many people who go to the local churches who are not members of the Body of Christ.
The dispensationalist-Christian Zionists are highly predictable in their use of the dialectic type of argument against the truths of the New Testament. First,the dialectic is a type of argument against the absolute truth of the word of God, which in the dialectic is called the thesis. The Zionists argue against the thesis with their anti-thesis, which is that Old Covenant Israel still exists alongside the Church.
Those who oppose the meaning of scriptures by use of the dialectic way of making an argument must first establish a dialogue with the target person or group. If the target person or group is wise to the dialectic, he or the group will not engage in a dialectic argument, and especially not on a personal basis. If the guy using the dialectic can get you into an almost endless argument, he has begun to win - because he can then run successive dialectic arguments and can gradually move you toward his anti-thesis, if you let him.
The dialectic mind is not open to being led by the Holy Spirit. The guy with a dialectic mind is too interested in an argument. God does not speak into the dialectic mind, though a person can come out of that mind.
Those who oppose the meaning of scriptures by use of the dialectic way of making an argument must first establish a dialogue with the target person or group. If the target person or group is wise to the dialectic, he or the group will not engage in a dialectic argument, and especially not on a personal basis. If the guy using the dialectic can get you into an almost endless argument, he has begun to win - because he can then run successive dialectic arguments and can gradually move you toward his anti-thesis, if you let him.
The dialectic mind is not open to being led by the Holy Spirit. The guy with a dialectic mind is too interested in an argument. God does not speak into the dialectic mind, though a person can come out of that mind.
themuzicman
Well-known member
Was Jesus Jewish? Was Jesus as physical descendant of Abraham?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
James quoted from the Greek version of the OT (the Septuigant), but with a slight modification. Here are the verses from the Septuigant :
"In that day will I raise up again the tabernacle of David that is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up...That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things." (Amos 9:11-12; Septuigant).
James replaced the words "in that day" with the following words:
"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:16).
Who else but the Lord Jesus can build up the tabernacle of David when He returns? James believed that this prophecy of Amos will not be fulfilled until after the Lord Jesus returns.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here is a definition of the dialectic method:
"Dialectic or dialectics (Greek: διαλεκτική, dialektikḗ), also known as the dialectical method, is a discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject but wishing to establish the truth through reasoned arguments" (Wikipedia).
That is exactly the same method which the Apostle Paul employed:
"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures"(Acts 17:2).
According to you Paul's mind was not open to being led by the Holy Spirit. LOL!
We dispensationalists plead "guilty" to reasoning out of the Scriptures. On the other hand, the preterists throw their reason to the wind and interpret the Scriptures according to their preconceived ideas. It is them who are not open to being led by the Holy Spirit.
Right Divider
Body part
:kookoo:
I think that Northwye is saying that dispensationalists think according to the 'Hegelian' Dialectic but he's wrong about that.
The literal, historical, grammatical hermeneutic naturally results in a dispensational premillennial understanding, which would be simply believing what GOD says literally.
Actually, it's the imposed allegorical hermeneutic that functions closer to Hegelian dialectics.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Of course.
But He was not the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel" in the following passage because He was not on the earth at that time:
"And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing" (Zech.8:13).
Right Divider
Body part
Amen Jerry! Amen!
A question is how many Christian Zionists are more interested in winning arguments then than they are in finding out the Truth. Who among them would argue against the theology of Christian Zionism in order to enjoy arguments for the sake of argument?
But does not making the same arguments on much the same issues over and over become boring?
Most people in this culture have been programmed by the dialectic and use it over and over without knowing what they are doing.
If anyone is interested in the form of the Hegelian Dialectic which is in use now see: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/dialectic.htm
This site has a list of other interesting articles relevant to Marxist dialectics.
But the writers of this discussion of the Marxist version of the Hegelian dialectic do not point out the shift from economics to psychology in Transformational Marxism from the Frankfurt School.
The Frankfurt School began to shift the emphasis of Marxism from economics to psychology. They first mixed Marx with Freud, and in the U.S. they got into American personality and social psychology and soon self psychology and the Encounter Group movement.
This shift makes it very hard for the average guy to understand how it could be that Transformational Marxism from the Frankfurt School could be Marxist, since the focus is not on economics.
The Transformational Marxist as change agent is not a follower of Marx's book, Das Kapital, which is Marxist economics, or of Bolshevism, which was the military takeover of peoples without first changing their culture.
Transformational Marxism makes use of the Marxist version of the dialectic in driving basic changes in government, society and especially culture in order to tear down the Christian and family based Western culture to make it easier to set up a totalitarian society.
Here is the Marxist quote that is basic to the dialectic in Transformational Marxism: "In the eyes of the dialectical philosophy, nothing is established for
all time, nothing is absolute or sacred."
The Christian Zionist argues against that which is unchanging and absolute as God's word by use of various tactics of the Marxist version of the dialectic. The object is to change the absolute Truth that Christ did away with the Old Covenant (II Corinthians 3: 6-9, Hebrews 10: 9) and established the New Covenant when he appeared the first time.
But does not making the same arguments on much the same issues over and over become boring?
Most people in this culture have been programmed by the dialectic and use it over and over without knowing what they are doing.
If anyone is interested in the form of the Hegelian Dialectic which is in use now see: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/dialectic.htm
This site has a list of other interesting articles relevant to Marxist dialectics.
But the writers of this discussion of the Marxist version of the Hegelian dialectic do not point out the shift from economics to psychology in Transformational Marxism from the Frankfurt School.
The Frankfurt School began to shift the emphasis of Marxism from economics to psychology. They first mixed Marx with Freud, and in the U.S. they got into American personality and social psychology and soon self psychology and the Encounter Group movement.
This shift makes it very hard for the average guy to understand how it could be that Transformational Marxism from the Frankfurt School could be Marxist, since the focus is not on economics.
The Transformational Marxist as change agent is not a follower of Marx's book, Das Kapital, which is Marxist economics, or of Bolshevism, which was the military takeover of peoples without first changing their culture.
Transformational Marxism makes use of the Marxist version of the dialectic in driving basic changes in government, society and especially culture in order to tear down the Christian and family based Western culture to make it easier to set up a totalitarian society.
Here is the Marxist quote that is basic to the dialectic in Transformational Marxism: "In the eyes of the dialectical philosophy, nothing is established for
all time, nothing is absolute or sacred."
The Christian Zionist argues against that which is unchanging and absolute as God's word by use of various tactics of the Marxist version of the dialectic. The object is to change the absolute Truth that Christ did away with the Old Covenant (II Corinthians 3: 6-9, Hebrews 10: 9) and established the New Covenant when he appeared the first time.
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turbosixx
New member
Isn't Paul of the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Didn't Paul spread the good news to the whole known world? Gentiles and Jews.
Col. 1:5...you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel 6 which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing,....23....hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
Isn't it the job of the church to spread the good news?
Eph. 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
Do you see any prophecies about the church? Surly there has to be, it's lasted twice as long as this future "millennial" kingdom?
themuzicman
Well-known member
Neither will any of the Jews alive during Jeremiah's time be alive when you say they'll be a blessing. The blessing that Israel produces is giving birth to the Messiah, and putting him to death.
TweetyBird
New member
In the OT the body of Christ was Israel and a few Gentiles who joined with Israel. That was old covenant - made with Israel - the Fathers. The change came with Christ - one new man being built into a spiritual habitation. The OT saints are no less our brothers now as they were then. Our faith depended on them, but came to fruition in Christ. That is the main focus that Paul preached. There is no more a nation of Israel and Gentiles. We are all the same in Christ Jesus. If the Jewish people keep rejecting Christ, other than the remnant who continues to come to Him, they will be cut off. As Hebrews states - they hear His voice TODAY, not at some point in the future. They have the opportunity to believe NOW, at this moment, just like the rest of humanity. There is no special advantage for the Jews now that Christ has died - the new covenant is for all mankind.
I know you disagree. But I believe this is what the NT teaches.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to prophecy the nation of Israel will bring the Gentiles to salvation:
"Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:3,5; NIV).
The Gentiles, in the future, will saved as a result to the agency of the nation of Israel. Certainly this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled because at the present time the nation of Israel has not been endowed with splendor by the Lord.
The Apostle Paul states in no uncertain terms that now it is through Israel's fall that salvation has come to the Gentiles:
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:11-12).
Paul says that since he and those in the Body of Christ are now doing Israel's job of bringing the Gentiles to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus then this should provoke them to jealousy.
Yes, today. But in the future the nation of Israel will be the Lord's agent to bring the knowledge of the Lord Jesus to the whole world:
"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you"(Zech.8:8,13,23).
No, we are now living during the "dispensation of the mystery" and the facts concerning the Body of Christ were kept secret during the OT:
"And to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ"
(Eph.3:9).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I told you that it was the Cross that allowed the Lord to reconcile both Jews and Gentiles into the Body of Christ. But you just ignored that.
Then you assert that in the OT Israel was the Body of Christ but you gave no evidence to support this assertion.
Right Divider
Body part
That's because you have no idea what the new covenant is.
You reject clear and simple scripture that a child can understand.
beloved57
Well-known member
Amos 9:15 has nothing to do with Israel according to the flesh, Abrahams natural descendants. They are not the children of God Rom 9:8 !