ECT The House of Israel and the House of Judah Will Be a Blessing

[Jerry Shugart]

Interesting that you skipped verse 11:

I guess a remnant counts for the whole, huh?

Verse 12 is even more interesting:

This is Old Covenant promises. This is return from exile.

None of that changes in anyway what is said here:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing(Zech.8:8,13).​

It is the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that was a curse and it will be the same seed who will be a blessing in the future:

"In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you"​

(Zech.8:23).​

Your eschatology has no place for the physical seeds of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be a blessing in the future, does it?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

*cough* Jesus */cough*

So you think that the Lord Jesus was a curse among the heathen at a time when He was not even on the earth!

Are you really serious?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you saying the church members were all already perfect?

No. So you are arguing that the Body of Christ was a curse among the heathen at a time when it didn't even exist?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

None of that changes in anyway what is said here:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing(Zech.8:8,13).​

It is the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that was a curse and it will be the same seed who will be a blessing in the future:

"In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you"​

(Zech.8:23).​

Your eschatology has no place for the physical seeds of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be a blessing in the future, does it?

Where you gettin' this idea of seeds?

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[jamie]

Does everyone realize that the seventh millennium of human history is a millennial Sabbath?

The millennial Sabbath is not a day of salvation, but the eighth millennium will be.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So Paul was writing to unsaved non church members, hunh?

No, he was writing to the circumcised believers who were also the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And it was the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that Paul was speaking of here:

"For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written" (Ro.2:24).​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

No. So you are arguing that the Body of Christ was a curse among the heathen at a time when it didn't even exist?

It's your delusion that it didn't exist at the time Paul wrote Romans, not mine.

 

[TweetyBird]

Originally Posted by beloved57:
No, but the Church was part of the nation of Israel.

Where do you get that?

Who dom you say is the identity of the "house of Israel"and the "house of Judah" in the verse which I quoted?

Acts 7
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church [G1577 - ekklesia] in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

No, he was writing to the circumcised believers who were also the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

You can't have it both ways.

All believers were and are in the body of Christ as soon as they believed.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Originally Posted by beloved57:
No, but the Church was part of the nation of Israel.





Acts 7
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church [G1577 - ekklesia] in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Dispensational eschatology ends with Paul being that "Prophet".

 

[TweetyBird]

No. So you are arguing that the Body of Christ was a curse among the heathen at a time when it didn't even exist?

The Body of Christ has always existed. The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. The saints of the OT were part of His body, because even though they could not see it and it was not revealed to them - they were still in Him because of faith. Read Heb 11. It is also explained in that chapter why there is no physical promised land anymore - for they seek a Heavenly and a city built by God. This is reiterated in Heb 13. Jew and Gentile in Christ are aliens and strangers on this earth, because their promised land is in the Heavenlies for now. But when the new heavens and new earth are created, it will come down to the new earth, forever more. That is the true Promised Land - an eternal glorious one - far beyond our imaginations.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It's your delusion that it didn't exist at the time Paul wrote Romans, not mine.

I never said that it didnt exist át the time when Paul wrote Romans. It didn't exist at the time when this was written:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing" (Zech.8:8,13).​

 

[TweetyBird]

Dispensational eschatology ends with Paul being that "Prophet".

That does not make sense. Stephen was speaking of Jesus Christ as the prophet foretold by Moses in Acts 7.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Body of Christ has always existed.

Then why does Paul refer to the Body of Christ as a "New Man"?:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:15-16).​

It was by the means of the Cross that both the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers were reconciled into "one body," the Body of Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You can't have it both ways.

All believers were and are in the body of Christ as soon as they believed.

Tell me what I said here that is in error:

Paul was writing to the circumcised believers who were also the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I never said that it didnt exist át the time when Paul wrote Romans.

If that's true when do you say it was here?

Never mind, I see your post above.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where you gettin' this idea of seeds?

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

"And they took their cattle, and their goods, which they had gotten in the land of Canaan, and came into Egypt, Jacob, and all his seed with him: 7. His sons, and his sons' sons with him, his daughters, and his sons' daughters, and all his seed brought he with him into Egypt" (Gen.46:6-7).​

 

[themuzicman]

None of that changes in anyway what is said here:

You mean other than that this deals with a remnant?

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing(Zech.8:8,13).​

It is the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that was a curse and it will be the same seed who will be a blessing in the future:

"In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you"​

(Zech.8:23).​

Your eschatology has no place for the physical seeds of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be a blessing in the future, does it?

Sure it does. Jesus is that blessing.

 

[themuzicman]

So you think that the Lord Jesus was a curse among the heathen at a time when He was not even on the earth!

Are you really serious?

Israel was the curse among the heathen. Eventually,they will produce the blessing that is Jesus Christ.

 

[northwye]

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2

"In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12. That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this." Amos 9: 11-12

"Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days," Hosea 3: 5

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" Zechariah 8:8,13: 23.

In Acts 15: 14-17 even James, who bragged to Paul in Acts 21: 19-21 that there were thousands of Jews who believe and are zealous of the law, said "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

James is quoting Amos 9: 11-12.

All of the four texts quoted above are about the restoration of Israel. But James says that Amos 9: 11-12 agrees with Peter's statement that Gentiles heard the word of the Gospel and believed, referring to Acts 10. The restoration of Israel according to James turned out to be one in which God led some of the Gentiles to believe on Christ. He could have added that this fulfills Hosea 2: 23.

And, what is important, James adds in Acts 15: 15 that not only does Amos 9: 11-12 agree with God's making Gentiles his people, but that the prophets, plural, not just Amos, agree with this. This means that James interprets other Old Testament prophecies of the restoration of Israel as being about a restoration which turns out to the one in which Christ appears and brings in the New Covenant.