beloved57
Well-known member
You still teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost!
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The Gospel Verses Predestination
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
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You don't address the questions. Thus it seems you don't know the answer or you concede the point.
How many receive God's grace?
How many believe?
How many has Jesus (the Logos) given the power to be Sons of God?
Does John 1:12 say that all of the above happens by the human will power?
Does John 1 say that the Logos does all of the above?
You are in direct conflict with the word of God.
"... and know that this is indeed the Christ, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD" John 4:42.
There is nothing wrong with God's word, but there is a whole lot wrong with Calvinism.
Nanja
Well-known member
Jesus Christ is not the Saviour of lost/unsaved people, because people that are lost do not have a Saviour.
For if they had a Saviour from sin, which Jesus Christ is, they would be Saved Mat. 1:21; 1 Tim. 1:15; Luke 19:10 !
And to say that Christ is the Saviour of lost souls is a contradiction of His namesake !
So then, Christ is the Saviour of the World which were Saved in Him, their Surety Heb. 7:22; 2 Tim. 1:9, before the world began!
Like other Calvinist you have a problem with the Bible.
Paul said, "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that JESUS CHRIST CAME INTO THE WORLD TO SAVE SINNERS; Of whom I am chief" 1 Timothy 1:15.
Jesus said, "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" Luke 19:10.
If Jesus is not the savior of the lost, then who is there to save?
The scripture that you listed contradicts you. You need to read the Bible without your Calvinist glasses on. You are so desperate to believe the Calvinist lie that you will even try to twist the scriptures to fit your false doctrine.
Salvation has been provided for EVERYONE.
"That he by the grace of God has tasted death for EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.
Nanja
Well-known member
The everyone / every man that Christ tasted death for are exclusive to every one of God's Elect which were Chosen in Christ to have forgiveness of sins and an Eternal Inheritance Eph. 1:4-11, and which were Saved before the World began 2 Tim. 1:9 !
Rosenritter
New member
Let me guess: "God prevents the non-elect from calling on the name of the Lord."
What you have just said is not in the Bible.
The scripture plainly says, "That he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.
2 Timothy 1:9 does not say that anyone was saved before the world began. What it does say is that it was God's purpose that Jesus would be the savior before the world began. Read the next scripture, 2 Timothy 1:10.
God chose all of humanity "In Christ" before the foundation of the world. Not just some certain individuals. God is no respecter of any ones person, Acts 10:34. Everything that God does he does in by and through Jesus Christ. If you want to be saved you will have to call on Christ to save you.
"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
beloved57
Well-known member
To hear you say it Christ death is powerless to save sinners He died for.
beloved57
Well-known member
False comments and you teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost.
Rosenritter
New member
Does it actually say anywhere that Christ's death saves anyone? Because here Paul says that his death reconciled us (not saved) but that rather it is Christ's life (and Christ's mercy) that saves us (Romans 5:10, Titus 3:5).
Romans 5:10-15 KJV
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
(11) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
(12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
(14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
That just sort of flows naturally into Robert's point in just a few verses. The gift of grace is abounded unto as many as be made dead by the first offence. The question is not whether that gift is sufficient, the question is whether that gift is received in faith and belief. Like the parable of the wedding feast, people were invited who would not accept the invitation.
beloved57
Well-known member
To be reconciled to God is to be saved legally from the penalty of sin and put in a right relationship with God. Rom 5:10
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No, to be reconciled means to have the possibility of having a relationship again. It doesn't guarantee a relationship.
It's like building a bridge across a chasm. It's there, but you don't have to cross it.
beloved57
Well-known member
Rosenritter
New member
OK, with a disclaimer that this scenario is impossible given my faith and belief, but supposing that Jesus had died and never rose again that sacrifice would still legally atone for our sins, but....
...but if it was that and only that (meaning Jesus never rose from the dead) then there would be no Jesus to bestow upon us the gift of eternal life. We don't have life in ourselves (Jesus did, we do not) and without that gift we would still die even if we were legally reconciled (and we of all men would be most miserable, see 1 Cor 15:19).
So we are reconciled by his death, but we are saved by his life. The living God gives us life, not a dead one. That's why I think Paul makes the distinction. The two concepts (his death and his life) are linked, but not the same.
P.S. I suppose we could suppose that if Jesus never rose (and was still dead) that our Father in Heaven could bestow life, but seeing how it didn't work for Jesus I don't see how that would be much hope for us. Please, no one take offense at that scenario. Just trying to clarify the difference between reconciliation by his death and salvation through his life.
Disagreeing with me doesn't make your position correct, B57. You can disagree with me all you like, but until you show that "reconcile" means "saved" (it doesnt, nor does "saved" mean "reconciled"; they aren't even synonyms), it's just blustering in the wind.
I'm just using the definition of reconciled, which means "restore friendly relations between" and "cause to coexist in harmony; make or show to be compatible" and "make (one account) consistent with another, especially by allowing for transactions begun but not yet completed."
B57 doesn't think any more than he doesn't.
Do you actually BELIEVE that every poster on TOL concedes to you? :nono:
Nanja
Well-known member
The Gospel is Spiritual and can only be understood by one who has a Spiritually prepared Heart / Good Ground Mat. 13:23.
But all the rest have been blinded by the devil.
1 Cor. 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual [scripture with scripture].
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So unless and until a person is Born of the Spirit, [given New Birth], nothing they do, including calling on the Name of the Lord, can please God.
Rom. 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
All their works of the flesh are filthy rags in God's sight Is. 64:6.
Rom. 3:11-12
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Jesus said to some unregenerate jews whose father was the devil John 8:44:
John 8:43, 47
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.