Everyone is born with the ability to have faith and believe. To not believe this is to believe that God is unjust. If you believe that God is unjust you will not be saved.
The Gospel Verses Predestination
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Everyone is born with the ability to have faith and believe. To not believe this is to believe that God is unjust. If you believe that God is unjust you will not be saved.
beloved57
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False statements not in scripture.
No.
Psalms 51
[5]For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
This is your judgment against the Holy God. You replace God with your painted image of God. You have a false image.
Romans 3:10-28,30
[10]As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one.
[11]No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God.
[12]All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.”
[13]“Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.”
[14]“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
[15]“They rush to commit murder.
[16]Destruction and misery always follow them.
[17]They don’t know where to find peace.”
[18]“They have no fear of God at all.”
[19]Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God.
[20]For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.
[21]But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.
[22]We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
[23]For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.
[24]Yet God freely and graciously declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.
[25]For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,
[26]for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
[27]Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith.
[28]So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.
[30]There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.
Is God just in condemning law breakers? Yes or no?
God takes full responsibility for the sins of his created beings. This is why he sends his only begotten Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world, 1 John 2:2.
It is not our fault that we are born sinners, but its our fault if we don't accept Christ as our savior.
God does not condemn law breakers, instead he sends his only begotten Son into the world to atone for the sins of the law breakers.
We are NOT made right with God by our faith. We are made right with God by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus, not our faith. Jesus is the one that has reconciled us to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.
God forces himself on no one. What kind of a God would that be? In the New Testament those that are saved are saved because they heard the Gospel. The good news that their sins can be forgiven through faith in Jesus. "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. salvation is granted to all that want to be saved.
No, God would not be just in condemning those that are born into sin, Romans 5:12. God says, "This day I have set before you both life and death. Choose life" Deuteronomy 30:19.
Did you just ignore Psalm 51?
No, Psalm 51:5 says, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me".
We are born sinners, but that doesn't mean that we can't choose to be saved if we want to.
Alright, we are born sinners. We agree?!
That means that God is just when he condemns sinners...correct?! That means that God is not an evil, cruel God when He sends people to hell because they are sinners...correct?!
Earlier, I believe you quoted Romans 3 which says "no one seeks God, not even one." Am I mistaken?
Let's flesh this out.
1) We are born sinners.
2) No one seeks God, not even one.
Now...what in those two truths leads you to say: We can choose to be saved if we want to.?
Help me with your leap, Robert, because I am not seeing the connection.
God's Truth
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You and RP both have wrong beliefs.
All can be saved, anyone, and whoever who believe and obey.
Calvinists: God will save me then I will believe and obey.
People like RP: I only have to believe and not obey.
God's Truth
New member
You don't understand the scriptures about no one seeks---that was about a particular time.
Read these scriptures and I will show you that some seek:
11 there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Paul is quoting Psalm14:1-3; 53:1-3; and Ecclesiastes 7:20. Ecclesiastes SAYS there is not a RIGHTEOUS man who does what is right and NEVER SINS. Ecclesiastes tells us that there ARE RIGHTEOUS men but none who NEVER sin. Paul is explaining that the Jews were sinners just like the Gentiles. Nowhere in these passages or scriptures anywhere does it say none can believe on their own. In this same Ecclesiastes 7, Solomon tells us about wise men, righteous men, and about a man who pleases God. Solomon also tells us that he found one upright man among a thousand. The Bible tells us that there are people who want to do right.
Isaiah 64:4 For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear, Nor has the eye seen a God besides You, Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him. 5You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness, Who remembers You in Your ways. Behold, You were angry, for we sinned, We continued in them a long time; And shall we be saved?
Paul is quoting King David. Paul is explaining that the Jews were sinful too. What is King David saying where Paul quotes? Listen carefully; at that time in which David speaks, the people are in a bad condition inside Israel. When the day spoken of arrived, no one searched for God.
If no one ever searched for God, ever, then how was it that the Israelites called out to God to help them when they thought God had forgotten them while they were slaves in Egypt?
Exodus 3:9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them.
Deuteronomy 26:7
Then we cried out to the LORD, the God of our ancestors, and the LORD heard our voice and saw our misery, toil and oppression.
If no one ever searched for God, then why do the scriptures say people did?
In the New Testament, when Jesus arrived, people shouted: “Son of David, have mercy on me”. They were looking for the Messiah. In the New Testament a blind man was searching for the Son of God, the prophet’s had said would come. I just showed you that people do SEEK God. Again, Paul was explaining that the Jews were sinners like the Gentiles, even though the Jews were supposed to be God’s Holy people.
God's Truth
New member
It is only to those who want God's Truth more than anything.
How much are you going to put into it?
How much studying are you willing to do?
How much time are you willing to put into it?
How many years of searching?
Never give up, give out, or give in.
How much are you going to put into it?
How much studying are you willing to do?
How much time are you willing to put into it?
How many years of searching?
Never give up, give out, or give in.
God's Truth
New member
"Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you--and even more.
Mark 4:24
Mark 4:24
God does not send people to hell. If you believe that then you believe that God is unjust. If you continue to believe that God is unjust you will never see heaven.
People are saved by hearing and believing the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is present in the preaching of the Gospel and convicts people of their need for Christ. On the day of Pentecost Thousand came to know Christ as their savior through Peter's Gospel, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.
Calvinist like yourself act like this event is not in the Bible. The scripture plainly says that... "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.
Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets and stone them that are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings AND YOU WOULD NOT" Matthew 23:37.
You are one of the would not's. Christ wants to save you, but you don't want him to save you, you want to be predestinated by God.
"Your house is left unto you desolate" Matthew 23:38.
Was Israel chosen before or after seeking? This is an important question for you.
God's Truth
New member
God puts people in prison/hell.
God will throw people in the lake of fire.
Don't you ever read the Bible for yourself?
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them in chains to be held in gloomy darkness until their judgment;
2 Peter 2:9 if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 25:40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
Ezekiel 22:20
As silver, copper, iron, lead and tin are gathered into a furnace to be melted with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you.
Ezekiel 22:21
I will gather you and I will blow on you with my fiery wrath, and you will be melted inside her.
Ezekiel 22:22
As silver is melted in a furnace, so you will be melted inside her, and you will know that I the LORD have poured out my wrath on you.’”
You just ignored your own comments and refuse to believe what you have claimed in order to hold to a lie you know is a lie. There is no hope for you.
Salvation has been provided for everyone, it is a free gift from God, Hebrews 2:9 also Romans 5:15-19.
If you neglect or reject what God has provided for you in Jesus Christ then you will send yourself to hell. As far as I can see you are already there.
If salvation is provided for everyone as you claim, then all will go to heaven and it matters not whether a person neglects or rejects. All are saved.
If you claim that salvation is dependent upon our own actions, then you are preaching the law as a means of salvation with no need for God's grace.
Let's look at Hebrews 2. Perhaps you failed to read past verse 9. If you had you would see that God choses who will be saved.
Hebrews 2:9-13
[9]What we do see is Jesus, who was given a position “a little lower than the angels”; and because he suffered death for us, he is now “crowned with glory and honor.” Yes, by God’s grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone.
[10]God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation.
[11]So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.
[12]For he said to God, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters. I will praise you among your assembled people.”
[13]He also said, “I will put my trust in him,” that is, “I and the children God has given me.”
Look at Romans 5. There is no universalism being taught by Paul. It seems you are struggling to accept that God is Sovereign, not you.
Romans 5:15-21
[15]But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ.
[16]And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins.
[17]For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.
[18]Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.
[19]Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.
[20]God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant.
[21]So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Maybe an analogy would help.
Everyone since Jesus' DBR has jumped out of the plane called Perfection (all have sinned). (Those before had as well, but let's not complicate things.)
Before jumping out of the plane, everyone was handed a parachute called "Jesus' salvation."
The only instruction on it is to pull the cord (believe Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead), and the person will be saved. That's it. (No works required.)
But they have to believe before they hit the ground (point of death), otherwise they go splat, and go straight to hell.
If they believe, the parachute opens and they don't go splat, and they live.
Jesus can't make the person pull the cord. He can only give him the parachute.
Most of the world has never heard of Jesus. They have not been given a parachute. Are they held responsible for their sin?
Your analogy falls far short from what the Bible teaches.
Where we will agree is in the truth that Christians are called to Go into the world, teach, make disciples and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
God's Truth
New member
Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
Did you see that? Peter realizes how true it is THAT GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVORITISM BUT ACCEPTS FROM EVERY NATION THE ONE WHO FEARS HIM AND DOES WHAT IS RIGHT.
Did you see that? Peter realizes how true it is THAT GOD DOES NOT SHOW FAVORITISM BUT ACCEPTS FROM EVERY NATION THE ONE WHO FEARS HIM AND DOES WHAT IS RIGHT.