Your same old foolish line.
ECT The Gospel Proper
- Thread starter Clete
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Your same old foolish line.
Please point out these sacrifices, foods, and circumcision where Paul says works?
Keep in mind that "circumcision" is often used to refer to the whole law, throughout the Bible.
God's Truth
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What is so foolish about our not having to clean ourselves now because Jesus does it by our just having faith that his blood does it?
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, as you've been told for years now, the gospel of the circumcision was for the Jews, where faith and works were required by God.
Paul preached a different gospel than Peter, James, and John. Paul's gospel was faith alone, without works.
God's Truth
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Whenever Paul says 'not of by works', the word circumcision is nearby.
Circumcision is the sign of the works of the law.
If a person was not circumcised, then it was known that they were unclean and unable to go to the temple and to be called a child of God.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I don't think she'll ever see the distinction. :sigh:
Still waiting for you to point out where works is described as the following.
Or are you going to twist and squirm and dodge and cower like you normally do when asked things like this?
God's Truth
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The old law did not require faith.
Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith;
It is the same gospel.
Now? When were you ever required to keep the Mosaic purification practices?
God's Truth
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That is why the Gentiles were without God in the world, it is because they did not obey God and come into the covenant.
Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
Colossians 2:11 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
Right Divider
Body part
It doesn't matter how you explain it or what scripture you show, she will still boast.
God's Truth
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I do not twist and squirm and dodge and cower.
Read how Paul mentions 'circumcision' as the work vs faith:
Romans 2:25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.
Romans 2:27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
Romans 2:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
Romans 2:29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Romans 3:1 [ God’s Faithfulness ] What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?
Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
Notice Paul does NOT say not of obeying.
The law does require faith, GT.
The verses you give show that.
Faith, works, and salvation:
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? - James 2:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:14&version=NKJV
Requirement of faith and works:
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. - James 2:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:17&version=NKJV
Insufficiency of faith alone:
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! - James 2:19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:19&version=NKJV
Faith and works:
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:20,26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:20,26&version=NKJV
Are you now contradicting yourself, GT?
Duh. Doesn't mean it didn't require faith. See above.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
If it's the same gospel, then why Paul?
God's Truth
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James is speaking about the New Covenant.
God's Truth
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Paul was trying to destroy the church.
Paul was saved and was a testimony to the worst of sinners being able to be saved too.
1 Timothy 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
As Clete might also say, on a good day, lol, it just might be not so much that you are consciously up to no good, rather that thus far, you have not been persuaded to seeing, nor have been able to see, where we are actually coming from on these issues.
For example, while valid, this thing you often assert about Paul having been referring to circumcision and the Law's various other rituals, whenever he writes of "not of works" nevertheless, his writings also repeatedly show that that is only the half of what he writes on that.
The other half being what he also often writes of those practices the Gentiles also had within their own, Gentile world made up concept of various gods and of the need to do works to appease them.
That is an aspect also described in the OT, as well.
A very simple...example of this aspect of works also addressed at the Cross...
Habakkuk 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
There that was, in Paul's day - those works that Gentiles engaged in, in the service of their made up, pagan gods.
Here that is, again...
Galatians 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
The foolish Galatians ended up going from those works in the service of their pagan gods that the Gentiles themselves had come up with, Romans 1: 21-23, to those works in the service of God under the Law that Israel had been given, Romans 9: 4,5 - both ordinances actually against man - that the Cross of Christ had put away, by the sacrifice of Himself, Eph. 2; Col. 2.
Your argument that Paul is only referring to those works under the Law, needs reevaluating.
That is what all this boils down to, things (plural) still in the way of your seeing what MADs are forever rightly going on about, regarding works during this Mystery GRACE Age.
Acts 17: 11, 12
God's Truth
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I prove what I say with scripture, and wisdom.
The Gentiles were talked into observing the purification/ceremonial works of the old law. They were observing special days and were talked into getting circumcised.
Galatians 5:2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
Christ will be of no use to them because he cleaned them by faith, but they are being talked into doing the old purification works of the law.
Paul is speaking about the purification works of the law. He speaks to the Galatians about observing special days and circumcision. That IS the works of the law that are worthless now, since faith in Jesus cleans us of the sins we repent of doing.
Notice Paul doesn't get upset with the Galatians for obeying God too much. Paul is upset because they are doing the purification works of the law.
There is a snuck premise here. This is as much a textbook example of real world, live action question begging as I've ever seen in an active debate.
This is why I wish more people would debate in a more or less syllogistic form such as is exemplified in this post. It makes it so much easier to detect where there is a flaw is the reasoning.
There are two stated premises here, both of which are true. Paul definitely does teach that one IS justified by faith alone and James clearly teaches that one IS NOT justified by faith alone.
So, why doesn't the premise follow? Because there is an unstated premise!
That premise being, that both Paul and James are ministering to the same group and writing to the same audience.
Now, this renders the argument invalid for two reasons...
1. Because it presupposes the answer to the question being debated in order to make the argument. If you're debating whether dispensationalism is correct then you can't make an argument against dispensationalism that presupposes that every author in the New Testament are all writing to the same set of believers because that assumes your side of the debate is correct. That's why it's called begging the question. You're presupposing an answer to the question being debated in order to make your argument.
2. We know this premise is factually false because we are told in God's word that they ministered to different groups....
Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Clete
Yep, in the following, James says so, himself...
Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
"And the Scripture cannot be broken" John 10:35.
Acts 17: 11, 12.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What James is saying is that real "faith" results in good works and if good works do not result then it is not a saving faith. But he is not saying that works are required for salvation, as evidenced by what he said in the first chapter:
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures"
(Jas.1:18).
And Peter teaches the same thing:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.23,25).
The Jews who lived under the law and believed in His name were given the right to be the children of God and therefore they were "born of God":
"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).
The Lord Jesus said the following to a Jewess who lived under the law and notice that the only requirement which He said is needed for the reward is "believing":
"I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die" (Jn.11:25-26).
Then He asks:
"Do you believe this? "
glorydaz, do you believe what the Savior said to the woman?
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