ECT The Gospel Proper

[God's Truth]

I think that James is demonstrating that some people have a misunderstanding as to what actual faith and belief mean.

James 2:18-20 KJV
(18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
(19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

There is a living faith and there is a dead faith, there is a genuine and true belief of the heart and there is a false and technical belief of the brain. When we say that we "believe [live] in the one true God and His Son Jesus Christ" it means quite a different thing than those that merely "believe" [know of] that there is one true God and His Son Jesus Christ.

There isn't a hidden meaning about faith alone not really being dead.

 

[God's Truth]

On one side you have those who were with Christ from the beginning, and on the other spectrum you have he who was most zealous in trying to destroy those who were in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:25-29 KJV
(25) Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
(26) For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
(27) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
(28) And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
(29) That no flesh should glory in his presence.

It's one of God's methods to take that which seems least likely and exalt it as an example of his strength, grace, and power.

I would say we agree on that.

 

[musterion]

heh

 

[God's Truth]

Nope. I said in response to GT:

GT had said that the law was not based on faith.

I agreed. It is not based on faith.

Not being based on faith does not exclude it from requiring faith, however. That was the distinction I was making.

So no, no contradiction in what I said, just a misunderstanding of what was said, the same misunderstanding that GT has.

:thumb:

The law is indeed not of faith.

But that doesn't mean that faith was not a requirement of it. It just means that faith wasn't the main focus of it.


Out of context, no less...


I never said it was.

Just because the law is not of faith does not mean that it does not require faith.


Again, not what I said. See above.


No, it has not been.

If someone broke a law in the Old Covenant, then they had to ask for forgiveness, or they would go to hell if they died. Not so with Paul's dispensation (not the New Covenant, which also requires works), which is by faith and NO works.

Taking things out of context now?

James was speaking not of the old law, as you say, but of the ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Jesus taught love your neighbor when he taught the New Covenant.

James taught the same thing and he calls it the Royal law.

Paul also taught that law that Royal Law.

Same one and only gospel by Jesus and all his apostles.


JESUS

Luke 10:27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

PAUL


Romans 13:9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”


Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Galatians 5:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

JAMES

James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right.

 

[God's Truth]

James was speaking of the ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Love is 'not harming your neighbor' that is how we love our neighbors; we do no harm to them. See Romans 13:10.

If you do not harm your neighbor by not murdering your neighbor, it is good and you have obeyed a commandment of do not murder---do not murder, love your neighbor.

If you do not harm your neighbor by committing adultery with your neighbor's wife, then you have obeyed another commandment, and you further show that you love your neighbor.

If you do not harm your neighbor by bearing false witness against them, you have done right and obeyed yet another command of the law and you still are loving your neighbor.

If you break one of the commandments in the law and STEAL from your neighbor, you have HARMED your neighbor, AND NOW YOU ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING THE WHOLE ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Do you understand now? You obeyed all those commands and were doing right by loving your neighbor, you loved your neighbor by not harming him by murdering him; you loved your neighbor by not committing adultery with his wife; you loved your neighbor by not bearing false witness against him ...BUT THEN, you missed up on one. You did not kill your neighbor, commit adultery with his wife, you did not bear false witness against him...but you stole something from him...YOU HAVE NOW broke one law and stole...AND NOW you are guilty of breaking the whole law of love your neighbor because you hurt him by stealing from him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do be a dear, Jerry, and lay out "real" faith.

Real faith is described as the "evidence" of things not seen:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen not seen" (Heb.12:1).​

In fact, real faith comes in the power of God and not in men's wisdom, as Paul said here:

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Cor.2:4-5).​

Those with real faith have the evidence that the Jews who lived under the law received everlasting life when they "believed" in the Lord Jesus, as "evidenced" by the His following words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"For My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

Those who do not have the "evidence of things not seen" cannot even understand that the Lord Jesus told these Jews who lived under the law that anyone who saw Him and "believed" in Him have eternal life.

Some people have that evidence and some don't. Those without the evidence are like the unbelieving Jews to whom Stephen addressed the following words:

"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (Acts 7:51).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No. James says faith alone does NOT even save.

What interpretation can you give for the meaning of the following words of James?:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

 

[Right Divider]

No. James says faith alone does NOT even save.

James was an Israelite that did not receive the dispensation that Paul did.

 

[Rosenritter]

Nope. I said in response to GT:

GT had said that the law was not based on faith.

I agreed. It is not based on faith.

Not being based on faith does not exclude it from requiring faith, however. That was the distinction I was making.

So no, no contradiction in what I said, just a misunderstanding of what was said, the same misunderstanding that GT has.

:thumb:

The law is indeed not of faith.

But that doesn't mean that faith was not a requirement of it. It just means that faith wasn't the main focus of it.

Out of context, no less...

I never said it was.

Just because the law is not of faith does not mean that it does not require faith.

Again, not what I said. See above.

No, it has not been.

Taking things out of context now?

It still sounds like you are contradicting yourself. The Law of Moses was either of with or aside from faith. You cannot have it both ways. I suspect the reason behind the difference in your speech is that you may be equating "the Law of Moses" with Salvation.

If someone broke a law in the Old Covenant, then they had to ask for forgiveness, or they would go to hell if they died. Not so with Paul's dispensation (not the New Covenant, which also requires works), which is by faith and NO works.

See that there (above) is where I think you made the mistake. You seem to have equated salvation with the Old Covenant, but the Old Covenant never had eternal life as a promise.

1. Salvation has always been of faith,
2. the Old Covenant was not of faith,
3. and the Old Covenant was not to salvation.

 

[Rosenritter]

There isn't a hidden meaning about faith alone not really being dead.

I hardly think it's hidden, but confusion might enter if someone takes a statement out of its context and applies it elsewhere.

James speaks in the context of how a true faith does not exist apart from works of faith. So if someone yanks that passage out of context and claims it is "faith shown by works of the law of Moses" rather than James' "faith shown by works of that faith" a very strange split doctrine results.

 

[God's Truth]

What interpretation can you give for the meaning of the following words of James?:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Do you think it means faith alone saves?

It is what we were talking about.

James says faith alone is dead and does not save anyone.

Jesus came to earth and gave all the rules and regulations for the New Covenant, his Last Will and Testament.

In his New Covenant, his Last Will and Testament, he explained the rules and regulations, he said who the heirs are, he said how to become an heir; he also told us what the heirs will receive. Then he died for that New Covenant that Last Will and Testament.

 

[God's Truth]

Nowhere anywhere did God say we have to believe and not obey to get saved, to be an heir, to be an adopted son. Faith alone is not the key to salvation. Faith and not obeying is not the good news.

 

[God's Truth]

James was an Israelite that did not receive the dispensation that Paul did.

They received the same one and only way to be saved.

 

[God's Truth]

It still sounds like you are contradicting yourself. The Law of Moses was either of with or aside from faith. You cannot have it both ways. I suspect the reason behind the difference in your speech is that you may be equating "the Law of Moses" with Salvation.



See that there (above) is where I think you made the mistake. You seem to have equated salvation with the Old Covenant, but the Old Covenant never had eternal life as a promise.

1. Salvation has always been of faith,
2. the Old Covenant was not of faith,
3. and the Old Covenant was not to salvation.

JudgeRightly teaches that James is an apostle of the old law.
He does not accept the fact that Jesus taught the one and only gospel that saves.
He believes Paul is the one who came and taught the gospel of faith alone.

 

[JudgeRightly]

JudgeRightly teaches that James is an apostle of the old law.

Bearing false witness is a sin, GT.

You should repent.

 

[God's Truth]

I hardly think it's hidden, but confusion might enter if someone takes a statement out of its context and applies it elsewhere.

James speaks in the context of how a true faith does not exist apart from works of faith. So if someone yanks that passage out of context and claims it is "faith shown by works of the law of Moses" rather than James' "faith shown by works of that faith" a very strange split doctrine results.

Since John the baptizer, there is only one gospel that saves. Jesus taught it. His apostles taught it, and then later Paul was included to teach it.

 

[God's Truth]

Bearing false witness is a sin, GT.

You should repent.

I don't bear false witness.

Clear it up plainly right now and tell us if you believe James taught the same as Paul.

If you do not clear it up plainly right now, then you are bearing false witness.

 

[Clete]

I was referencing Keith Blade's book, "Satan and his plan of evil : a survey of the Biblical doctrine," which Danoh cited, just a few posts back.

Yes. I got that. I want to know more about the book.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I don't bear false witness.

You just did.

Clear it up plainly right now and tell us if you believe James taught the same as Paul.

Not what you accused me of, False Witness, Goalposts Mover.

You accused me of teaching that James taught the Old Covenant.

NOT

... That James taught the same/different than Paul.

If you do not clear it up plainly right now, then you are bearing false witness.

:blabla:

:troll:

"I'm not the false witness, you are!"

Leave TOL, false accuser.

 

[God's Truth]

The law does require faith, GT.

The verses you give show that.

Faith, works, and salvation:
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? - James 2:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:14&version=NKJV

Requirement of faith and works:
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. - James 2:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:17&version=NKJV

Insufficiency of faith alone:
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! - James 2:19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:19&version=NKJV

Faith and works:
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:20,26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:20,26&version=NKJV

Are you now contradicting yourself, GT?



Duh. Doesn't mean it didn't require faith. See above.



Saying it doesn't make it so.

If it's the same gospel, then why Paul?

Here is the confused JR telling me that James DOES TEACH WORKS AND FAITH!

JR went against me when I QUOTED PAUL as saying the LAW WAS NOT BASED ON FAITH.

JR then gave scripture from JAMES who preaches FAITH AND WORKS.

AS IF James is preaching the old law!