glorydaz
Well-known member
Oh, are you a Jew?
"The Gospel Plus Nothing and Nothing But the Gospel"
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Oh, are you a Jew?
They'll have to be to save face... it's either Jew... "Confused"... or :troll:
Just because it is not perfect does not mean that it should be discarded. There is nothing perfect that is written by men. All men are sinners and make mistakes. We do not live in a perfect world. The sole purpose of the Bible is to reveal Christ and his Gospel, it does this very well. You need to read about it.
Why would he want to read about it if it contains errors? You do not believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God?
RealityJerk
New member
Whatever I am, is irrelevant. My arguments will stand or fall on their merits, not on the bases of who or what I am. Resorting to these ad hominem attacks, only indicates your inability to offer a rational, reasonable defense for your cherished, religious assertions.
None of you have been able to give a reasonable argument for why anyone should believe your religious book is infallible. All you've offered is "just believe", and that's it. That's your argument.."Just believe this book is God's word, because it is, and it says it is, hence it is.."...Why is it the word of God..." Well, it says it is, so it is and I believe it is, and if you don't believe it, then you're wrong. You're just wrong, because the infallible book, says its infallible, and I believe its infallible, hence its infallible... .".
You want your magical, infallible book from heaven, with all of the answers. No mystery, no walking out into the desert, an unknown land, a place of promise and faith. No, EVERYTHING, all things, have to be revealed and delivered to you, before hand, before you step out in faith, in obedience to YHWH. You need your security blanker, your "infallible answer book from heaven". You know what the word for "grave" is in Hebrew? It's sheol, it means, "to ask", "to question". Death is a question. The unknown. They served YHWH, without being absolutely certain, about anything, after death, They were the true heroes of God.
Life and death, is full of mystery, the unknown. Darkness, chaos. Sometimes you have to walk into the darkness, to appreciate the light. You have to walk out of the city, into the desert. The darkness highlights, reveals, the light. You're in this physical realm, in order to learn a lesson. To explore, to venture out in faith, in and out of season, whether you have a detailed map or not, whether you have your "infallible answer book" / warm, fuzzy teddy bear or not, you must step out into the unknown. Into the darkness, the chaos of this broken world. That's what Abraham did. YHWH told him, leave your homeland and family, and go to a place I will show you...Step out into the unknown and be perfect. Strive for holiness. Set yourself apart.
God says, "figure it out". You want to live in sin? Deviate from my divine ideal and design for you, go right ahead. Indulge. Figure it out. You think you can live in sin and inherit eternal life? You're now supposedly in the promise land, and no longer in the wilderness? You've already crossed the Jordan and Moses is dead on the mountain behind you? Don't delude yourselves.
Mat 7:22* Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?*
Mat 7:23* And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.
ἀνομία
anomia
Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G459
-----------------------------
STRONGS:
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
Total KJV occurrences: 15
*
----------------------------------------------
Who are the ones who identify Yeshua / " Jesus " as Lord, cast out demons and perform great works in his name? Is it the unbelieving Jews? The Muslims perhaps? Hare Krishnas? Christians. It's those who believe they're crossed the Jordan, and Moses is dead in the wilderness.
Rev_12:17* And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12* Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14* Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
None of you have been able to give a reasonable argument for why anyone should believe your religious book is infallible. All you've offered is "just believe", and that's it. That's your argument.."Just believe this book is God's word, because it is, and it says it is, hence it is.."...Why is it the word of God..." Well, it says it is, so it is and I believe it is, and if you don't believe it, then you're wrong. You're just wrong, because the infallible book, says its infallible, and I believe its infallible, hence its infallible... .".
You want your magical, infallible book from heaven, with all of the answers. No mystery, no walking out into the desert, an unknown land, a place of promise and faith. No, EVERYTHING, all things, have to be revealed and delivered to you, before hand, before you step out in faith, in obedience to YHWH. You need your security blanker, your "infallible answer book from heaven". You know what the word for "grave" is in Hebrew? It's sheol, it means, "to ask", "to question". Death is a question. The unknown. They served YHWH, without being absolutely certain, about anything, after death, They were the true heroes of God.
Life and death, is full of mystery, the unknown. Darkness, chaos. Sometimes you have to walk into the darkness, to appreciate the light. You have to walk out of the city, into the desert. The darkness highlights, reveals, the light. You're in this physical realm, in order to learn a lesson. To explore, to venture out in faith, in and out of season, whether you have a detailed map or not, whether you have your "infallible answer book" / warm, fuzzy teddy bear or not, you must step out into the unknown. Into the darkness, the chaos of this broken world. That's what Abraham did. YHWH told him, leave your homeland and family, and go to a place I will show you...Step out into the unknown and be perfect. Strive for holiness. Set yourself apart.
God says, "figure it out". You want to live in sin? Deviate from my divine ideal and design for you, go right ahead. Indulge. Figure it out. You think you can live in sin and inherit eternal life? You're now supposedly in the promise land, and no longer in the wilderness? You've already crossed the Jordan and Moses is dead on the mountain behind you? Don't delude yourselves.
Mat 7:22* Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?*
Mat 7:23* And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.
ἀνομία
anomia
Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G459
-----------------------------
STRONGS:
ἀνομία
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
Total KJV occurrences: 15
*
----------------------------------------------
Who are the ones who identify Yeshua / " Jesus " as Lord, cast out demons and perform great works in his name? Is it the unbelieving Jews? The Muslims perhaps? Hare Krishnas? Christians. It's those who believe they're crossed the Jordan, and Moses is dead in the wilderness.
Rev_12:17* And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12* Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14* Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
RealityJerk
New member
All anyone has to do is read my previous posts, to see I never said the bible is worthless and should be thrown into the waste basket. That's your straw-man argument. What I am saying, is be careful you don't fall into idolatry, worshiping this book. The book without the spirit is dead. The letter kills, without the spirit. To much emphasis on the text, saps the spirit. It's a distraction and source of false security.
The errors are minor and do not effect the Gospel or justification by faith. The Bible does not hide the sins or the mistakes of God's people. The Holy Spirit does not do a perfect work through Christians.
The Bible is a witness to Christ and his Gospel. You really need to read it so that you know how you are saved.
RealityJerk
New member
You can record those words and play them back to yourself. Perhaps you'll figure out how to get saved.
The Bible is the most reliable, well documented, consistent, substantiated, requested, validated, and valued piece of literature the world has ever known.
#2 goes to Homer's Iliad.
Everything under #2 doesn't even come close to the amount of documentation we have to validate it's consistency.
If you were to stack the documentation of the Iliad, it would reach almost 3 feet high.
For the documentation of the Bible, it would reach over a mile high.
No piece of literature has ever reached the peak that the Bible has.
Nothing even comes close to it.
#2 goes to Homer's Iliad.
Everything under #2 doesn't even come close to the amount of documentation we have to validate it's consistency.
If you were to stack the documentation of the Iliad, it would reach almost 3 feet high.
For the documentation of the Bible, it would reach over a mile high.
No piece of literature has ever reached the peak that the Bible has.
Nothing even comes close to it.
You're just mad at yourself for not accepting God's free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. You don't believe
The book of Job in the Bible has long been praised as one of the greatest literary masterpieces of all time.
Just a few reviews:
Victor Hugo's praise of it.
Tennyson regarded it as .....
Daniel Webster had this to say ...
Just a few reviews:
Victor Hugo's praise of it.
| "Tomorrow, if all literature was to be destroyed and it was left to me to retain one work only, I should save Job." |
Tennyson regarded it as .....
| "the greatest poem, whether of ancient or modern literature." |
Daniel Webster had this to say ...
| "The book of Job taken as a mere work of literary genius, is one of the most wonderful production of any age or of any language." |
glorydaz
Well-known member
RealityJerk
New member
God has revealed to all of you, that the bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God. Hasn't he? You have received this divine revelation, directly from God Himself. Right? Is that your claim? God is communicating this to you, some how and you are some how, aware of this divine transmission of knowledge, wisdom. Right? Tell me, if the above is not true, then how do you justify, attributing divine infallibility, perfection, to the bible.
The only we you can identify a book, as being the supposed, word of God. Is if you first have some type of, connection, come in contact with, God. Now I can adopt the same line of critique, that you used against the notion of me, receiving a divine deposit of spiritual discernment, knowledge, wisdom, to identify His will, for me. What God wants and expects from me. What is and isn't profitable, for instruction in Godliness.
You charge me with arrogance, for suggesting that perhaps it's better for you to, have and cultivate a relationship with YHWH, that will allow you to discern, judge, what is His divine will and what isn't, rather than relying on other human beings, to determine that for you. When you allow other human beings, to answer
and determine such questions for you, praying for you and doing for you, what you should be answering, praying and doing for yourself, in communion with God, you become a deluded, lazy, insecure, irrational, religious coward.
You then accuse those who have taken the initiative, for the love of God, to pursue the truth, sacrificially, with genuine devotion, developing their inner-man and spiritual gifts in Messiah, as being presumptuous, eclectic "new agers", attributing their own carnal, self-serving, skewed desires to God. What you fail to realize is that, the exact same charge can be levied against YOU, mindless bible thumping Evangelicals, when you claim that some how, you know, that the bible is the word of God. When challenged on the question of biblical inerrancy and your supposed "closed canon" of scripture, you retreat, to:
"You either know and recognize the bible is inspired word of God or you don't know. You either have it or you don't. You either have the heavenly deposited faith or you don't have it. You either have a relationship with God, being a member of his royal family, the elect that will reign with Him over the nations, who know that the bible is His word, or you don't buddy. If you don't see, sense, recognize, somehow, that the bible book, is God's infallible, inerrant word, then that's your problem buddy. I receive direct knowledge from the very throne of God. I'm a divinely empowered, inspired, infallible "word of God" detector AND interpreter."
No, you're just a self-deluded, spiritually bankrupt coward. You're so afraid of death and of the unknown, the darkness that envelopes this world, that you will "believe" and profess anything that will distract you from your conscience and fears. You refuse to approach reality, life, on its own terms. This physical world has its nature, and you simply can't face it. There are no infallible, inerrant, answer books. You don't get a sack full of answers, to hang over your shoulder, in this fallen, broken world. You get a sack full of questions. Sheol, the word for grave, means "to ask". To inquire. To reflect. That's what the prophets do. In the desert, often alone. Just YOU and GOD. You and God. It's not me and God. It's not him or her and God, it's YOU AND YOUR GOD. You need the HOLY SPIRIT PRESENCE OF GOD. The book is then profitable, provided the emphasis of your devotion, is the God of the book, not the book.
Stop pretending, you know more than you actually know. You can know God, but somethings are left unanswered, and you have to have the sincerity and humility to recognize that. You need to get over it and stop condemning others for their courage and willingness to die for God:
"God, I want you.Your presence, now, that is my only aspiration. To walk with you. Do with me what you will Lord. You owe me nothing. You are the greatest good, and that is what my soul loves and pursues. I love righteousness, that which is pure and holy, for you have infused my soul with light and your eternal, living word. Purge me of my delusions and selfish, carnal desires, by whatever means necessary. Do with me what you will Lord, I ask for nothing more."
That is the attitude, the spirit, of the soldiers of Messiah. YHWH Sabaoth - YAHWEH OF ARMIES, I will ride this steed into the deepest, darkest abyss, into the very bowels of hell, for your glory Lord, let thy will be done. That is the spirit of Christ, one of unflinching courage, in the face of death, in the heat of battle. Ready to sacrifice everything, for God's glory, even your own existence. That is THE WAY of the discples of Jesus Christ, of Yeshua Ha'Mashiach. That is the straight and narrow, that few people find. I am willing and able my lord, I await your order. No carpeted, air-conditioned fox holes here. If you're looking for a hilton resort suite, you're in the wrong place soldier. Christ became nothing on the cross, at the place of the skull. Golgotha, that's the place of testing. Your mind. Ego. You have to die to live. Die to live. It's a paradox. Those that lose their lives, find it. I found my life, when I lost it. It took an aneurysm in my ascending aorta, and four leaky heart valves, with a dilated left atrium, to wake me up. I lost the fear of death and stopped hanckering, worshiping eternal life. I realized that the author of life, is worthy of my devotion, of my life, for who He is, not for what He can give me. Oh the freedom. I am finally free. I got it.
YESHUA, I LOVE YOU! THANK YOU !!!
The only we you can identify a book, as being the supposed, word of God. Is if you first have some type of, connection, come in contact with, God. Now I can adopt the same line of critique, that you used against the notion of me, receiving a divine deposit of spiritual discernment, knowledge, wisdom, to identify His will, for me. What God wants and expects from me. What is and isn't profitable, for instruction in Godliness.
You charge me with arrogance, for suggesting that perhaps it's better for you to, have and cultivate a relationship with YHWH, that will allow you to discern, judge, what is His divine will and what isn't, rather than relying on other human beings, to determine that for you. When you allow other human beings, to answer
and determine such questions for you, praying for you and doing for you, what you should be answering, praying and doing for yourself, in communion with God, you become a deluded, lazy, insecure, irrational, religious coward.
You then accuse those who have taken the initiative, for the love of God, to pursue the truth, sacrificially, with genuine devotion, developing their inner-man and spiritual gifts in Messiah, as being presumptuous, eclectic "new agers", attributing their own carnal, self-serving, skewed desires to God. What you fail to realize is that, the exact same charge can be levied against YOU, mindless bible thumping Evangelicals, when you claim that some how, you know, that the bible is the word of God. When challenged on the question of biblical inerrancy and your supposed "closed canon" of scripture, you retreat, to:
"You either know and recognize the bible is inspired word of God or you don't know. You either have it or you don't. You either have the heavenly deposited faith or you don't have it. You either have a relationship with God, being a member of his royal family, the elect that will reign with Him over the nations, who know that the bible is His word, or you don't buddy. If you don't see, sense, recognize, somehow, that the bible book, is God's infallible, inerrant word, then that's your problem buddy. I receive direct knowledge from the very throne of God. I'm a divinely empowered, inspired, infallible "word of God" detector AND interpreter."
No, you're just a self-deluded, spiritually bankrupt coward. You're so afraid of death and of the unknown, the darkness that envelopes this world, that you will "believe" and profess anything that will distract you from your conscience and fears. You refuse to approach reality, life, on its own terms. This physical world has its nature, and you simply can't face it. There are no infallible, inerrant, answer books. You don't get a sack full of answers, to hang over your shoulder, in this fallen, broken world. You get a sack full of questions. Sheol, the word for grave, means "to ask". To inquire. To reflect. That's what the prophets do. In the desert, often alone. Just YOU and GOD. You and God. It's not me and God. It's not him or her and God, it's YOU AND YOUR GOD. You need the HOLY SPIRIT PRESENCE OF GOD. The book is then profitable, provided the emphasis of your devotion, is the God of the book, not the book.
Stop pretending, you know more than you actually know. You can know God, but somethings are left unanswered, and you have to have the sincerity and humility to recognize that. You need to get over it and stop condemning others for their courage and willingness to die for God:
"God, I want you.Your presence, now, that is my only aspiration. To walk with you. Do with me what you will Lord. You owe me nothing. You are the greatest good, and that is what my soul loves and pursues. I love righteousness, that which is pure and holy, for you have infused my soul with light and your eternal, living word. Purge me of my delusions and selfish, carnal desires, by whatever means necessary. Do with me what you will Lord, I ask for nothing more."
That is the attitude, the spirit, of the soldiers of Messiah. YHWH Sabaoth - YAHWEH OF ARMIES, I will ride this steed into the deepest, darkest abyss, into the very bowels of hell, for your glory Lord, let thy will be done. That is the spirit of Christ, one of unflinching courage, in the face of death, in the heat of battle. Ready to sacrifice everything, for God's glory, even your own existence. That is THE WAY of the discples of Jesus Christ, of Yeshua Ha'Mashiach. That is the straight and narrow, that few people find. I am willing and able my lord, I await your order. No carpeted, air-conditioned fox holes here. If you're looking for a hilton resort suite, you're in the wrong place soldier. Christ became nothing on the cross, at the place of the skull. Golgotha, that's the place of testing. Your mind. Ego. You have to die to live. Die to live. It's a paradox. Those that lose their lives, find it. I found my life, when I lost it. It took an aneurysm in my ascending aorta, and four leaky heart valves, with a dilated left atrium, to wake me up. I lost the fear of death and stopped hanckering, worshiping eternal life. I realized that the author of life, is worthy of my devotion, of my life, for who He is, not for what He can give me. Oh the freedom. I am finally free. I got it.
YESHUA, I LOVE YOU! THANK YOU !!!
Lon
Well-known member
Romans 10:14 It carries an authoritative punch all by itself, doesn't it? When the Lord Jesus Christ was with Satan in the desert, what did He says? --> "It is written...." Over and over again. Sorry RJ, you are wrong. I can't say that any nicer. You are flat out wrong.
Great, then you aren't really talking with me or anybody else on TOL so no need for you to be here. I'm just listening to the voices in my head, and they are telling me to read the book. :think:
Let's do that again:
:nono: I am CERTAIN, I didn't just type that nor would express such a thing. Rather, I cut/pasted what you wrote. I don't have to know you to know quite a number of things 'outside of myself.' I'm "absolutely certain." One of us is wrong.....easily and clearly.
:think: Proverbs 9:10 :think: I am 'certain' that if there is a God, I want to know Him, not navel-gaze some more :think:
1) I'm convinced, given the above and the Bible your mental facilities are messed up. I'm positive. Proverbs 14:12; 16:25 Twice even :noway: 2) Romans 3:23 You lost before the starting gates even opened. Only in Christ, can anyone have what he/she needs.
1) Jesus 'quoted' and 'read' scriptures. You CAN'T do better than Him. Matthew 4:4, 7, and 10. He quoted it. The Bereans also, were 'more noble' because they read the scriptures. John 20:31 But these are written that 1) you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and 2) that by believing you may have life in his name. :doh:
You are a little goof 2 Corinthians 6:17
Yep.
Oh great Oz! READ▲what ▲you JUST wrote. You said it is either/or and then said "but I was just kidding, it really isn't either/or, there is a middle." :doh: Please please please, let me help you think!
Er, I'm threatened 'because' it is :noway: Whatever you think is wrong, likely isn't, just a quick and dirty summation without study, almost always. No atheist website has ever done diddly squat to crush the scriptures. They are true.
Agree, but scriptures aren't 'my' or anyone else's opinion. They are a road map. Saying someone doesn't need a road map to get from Canada to California is bad advice. I'm a great driver. Without a map? I wound up in East LA WITH a good map!
:think: 2 Timothy 3:16 ....you or God.....you or God...... :think:
With what??? If you never have been to California from Canada, how are you going to do it????????? (hint, get a 'm-a-p' - God's Word is a map, don't leave home or live life without it)
Acts 17:11 John 5:39 (Jesus didn't correct them about scriptures, rather 'Who' those scriptures were about). Deuteronomy 6:4-10
:nono: I cherished every letter my wife ever wrote me. They are full of love. Such does not sap, it gives life. John 6:68
Dude! You NEED to read the scriptures!
Lon
Well-known member
Yes, in the same manner He does to all: 1) Consistently. The bible doesn't contradict itself. 2) Truthfully, you can find every city in the Bible. Archeologists still use it to help them find buried cities. 3) Authoritative. The Lord Jesus Christ a) read it in the synagogue, quoted it, and b) continued to tell His disciples to do the same and they us. It is obvious, sadly, and frankly, that you haven't read it or you'd know this as well as how much the Lord Jesus and His Apostles cherished it, and carefully recorded their own words as scriptures. 2 Peter 3:16 You really need to read it. With a little time, you can verify that it is true, authoritative, from God, and consistent for life and Godliness. 2 Timothy 3:16.
Here is the deal RJ, it is true simply because I have the intelligence to verify it. The Bereans did too. How about you? Do you have the intelligence to actually verify it is true? I think you do, but you haven't really wrestled long or hard enough with them. You haven't studied them enough. You haven't discovered they give life. The more you read them, the more in love with the Savior you would be, if you know Him. John 5:39 The Lord Jesus called them scriptures. You cannot 'attack' them without attacking Him. John 5:39 said they are about Himself. He does give His Spirit. Trying to go from Canada to California, with just a compass and NOT a map is a poor idea and NOT wise. Wisdom is learning to put them together. Same here: Hebrews 8:10; 10:16 His 'words.' John 16:13 A compass can 'guide' you, but without a map? Not wise. Be wise. -Lon
I 'studied.' Try it.
RealityJerk
New member
Let's examine your reasoning. If a book, doesn't have, apparent contradictions, then it is the infallible word of almighty God? Is that what you're saying? That's not a very good metric, for identifying an “infallible book”. Are any fallible books, free of contradictions? Perhaps.
What would you define as a contradiction? That should be made clear, before I take the time to present you with what I believe to be clear and obvious internal , textual, theological contradictions and inconsistencies, in the bible. I want to avoid playing the “that's not really a contradiction” game with you. Perhaps your standard of what is and isn't a contradiction, is unreasonable, maybe even laughable. Assuming that all books that are free of contradictions, are infallible, is just an unnecessary, illogical supposition.
Perhaps a literary work, is free of textual, “literal” contradictions, yet nonetheless, full of error, in it's descriptive content. It gets certain facts wrong, about, for example, where certain skyscrapers are located in the United States, but it's still consistent and free of contradiction, in it's message. The book might state that the Empire State Building is in Miami Beach, rather than New York City. That's not a contradiction, that's just a factual, descriptive anomaly. An error.
In closing, just because a book is free of apparent contradictions, it doesn't necessarily make it infallible. A book with clear and obvious contradictions, however, by necessity, isn't infallible. The Quran for example, not having internal, textual contradictions, wouldn't automatically, by default, make it an infallible book, free of error, much less the word of God. However if it does have apparent contradictions, I'm sure you would be quick to point that out. All of the above points, hold true for the Quran, the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, a science fiction novel, your bible..etc
That's definitely an irrelevant, illogical, false indicator. There are many literary words, millions upon millions, that get the cities, locations, they are describing, correctly. Both fictional and non-fictional. For example, a war novel can provide completely accurate geographical information, descriptions of cities, towns...etc that doesn't imply that the novel is non-fiction, much less infallible.
Archeologists, might use many different literary sources, when conducting research for a dig, both ancient and modern. That doesn't imply, that these writen sources are infallible, much less the word of almighty God.
So far, no good, let's continue...
Let's see how this piece of “evidence” works (I'm not “pulling any punches” here, so don't get shocked, prepare yourself..). You cite a verse from the Christian New Testament, where Jesus, in the Synagogue, read from the Hebrew bible, quoting it and later he instructs His disciples to do the same. He also tells them to make disciples, teaching them everything that he taught them:
TORAH...
Ok...First of all, if this is true, and I believe it is...(...This is purely, a matter of personal conviction, belief, because I first have to assume, that what is being described in the text, actually took place..That's based on a spiritual conviction. A divinely born and inspired trust. “New agey” eclectic, “irresponsible”, “subjective” , “wild” faith, whatever you want to call it. )...We shouldn't automatically, necessarily, assume that Jesus and His disciples, subscribed to the exact same idea of biblical canonicity, as modern Christendom.
It wasn't until recently, say the last 200 years, that the Jews printed the prophets and writings, alongside the five books of Moses. The five books of Moses, the “Torah proper”, has always been held to have the highest authority. It's the litmus, upon which all other scriptures are to be tested. All other Hebrew biblical texts (and non-Hebrew), are read in light of the Torah, five books of Moses. There was no official Jewish canon, until at least the late 1st century and that is debatable. Many ascribe the so called rabbinic counsel of Jamnia as a myth. The Jewish canon was open, in the first century.
When Jesus alludes to the three classifications of Hebrew sacred scripture, he uses the term, “Law, Prophets, Psalms”....He doesn't apply the term “Kethuvim” / writings, for the third classification. He says “Psalms”. The kings of Israel, by divine decree, had to possess a copy of the law, or Torah. That wasn't the case with the literary works, that fall under the other two classifications, Prophets and Psalms, or Prophets and Writings / Kethuvim. This needs to be mentioned and clarified. The scriptural canon for the Jews, was still open at that time.
So, what is your authority, for determining what can be added, as scripture, to the Hebrew bible that Jesus and His disciples read, cited and studied? Let me know brother. Is it the Catholic church? A bunch of pagan, antisemitic gentiles? Greeks that reject Torah? The scripture/s, that Yeshua Ha'Melech / Jesus The King, taught to His disciples? Opened their minds to understand?
More..Who are Yeshua's, bonafied, personally chosen, commissioned disciples, who will judge/save, the children of Israel? You should ask yourself that question. The twelve apostolic pillars of our Messianic faith, never taught a word, against Torah. Not one word. They were zealous of the law. Zealous.
Are Christians “zealous of the law” ? They gave the gentiles, a rule of conduct. This would eventually, lead, to the gentiles, who are of YHWH's elect, to eventually keep the Torah, along with the testimony of Messiah. The elect, will comprise, restored Israel. The administrative, human corps, of YHWH's kingdom. Those who lay down their lives, in this age, will partake of the first resurrection. They will reign, govern, with Messiah. They will serve the Kingdom, in a special capacity. That's the place of Israel, until the end of time. A restored Israel, with its twelve tribes, administrating, ministering, to the nations, from Zion.
God in His wisdom, knew that, it would take centuries, to draw out His people from the nations, and restore Israel, to its original, proper function, as a royal, priestly nation. The Hebrew word for Israel, can be translated, “prince of God”. That is the destiny of the elect, who become disciples of Yeshua, in this fallen age. Eventually, every knee shall bow and tongue confess, that Yeshua is King. Lord. Some will be forgiven, redeemed, thanks to the shed life blood, of Messiah. The second Adam. He paid the ransom. But not all reign with him, nor are counted as “Israel”. He first comes for His bride. Israel.
That's His obligation, as a good husband. Later, the others.
The second death, is reserved, for certain people. But in general, everyone will be brought to repentance, and will receive salvation, through the glorious blood and power of Yeshua, Yahweh's salvation. There are consequences for sin, and that's why everyone experiences, the first death. Except the elect, those who are born from above. If you lay down your life here, and commit yourself to the King, to your Savior, then you will not suffer the first, much less the second death. You will be with Messiah, above, until the day of resurrection.
All other human beings, go here:
The abyss. A very dark and gloomy place, inhabited by demons. Not good. That's not reserved for the elect, who in this present age, live and die in Messiah. The so called “god” of this age, is going to lose it's power and authority, over all creation. This is going to happen, soon. Messiah is returning very soon. We must prepare brothers and sisters. Walk The Narrow Way. Be strict with yourself, lenient with others.
Shalom.
Yep.
And
Romans 15:4 KJV
(4) For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
The Lord God amd Savior Jesus Christ must not have read RealJerk's memo about the scriptures being unreliable.
The Lord Jesus Christ had confidence in scripture.
RealJerk does not.
The Lord Jesus Christ never belittled scripture.
RealJerk does.
Yep.
Acts 17:11 KJV
(11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Atta boy, Lon.
:cheers:
That would go against those spirits he is listening to.