That is how we all see the world. But the horizon is not rising. Even on a flat disc you must look slightly down to see the horizon.
The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II
- Thread starter DFT_Dave
- Start date
- Status
That is how we all see the world. But the horizon is not rising. Even on a flat disc you must look slightly down to see the horizon.
I usually say "appears to be rising", I did not mean that it actually rises.
But the issue is that those who believe in the globe say we look slightly down at the horizon because they say we are looking at the bulge of a curved earth.
But the reality is that the horizon rises to our eye level or it does not.
If the earth were curving away from us, if it was a globe, then the horizon would not appear to rise to our eye level.
If the earth is flat/level then the horizon does appear to rise to our eye level and the earth is not curved, not a globe.
--Dave
That was an answer to one of your own objections from the several post of yours which I quoted. You posted an image file which is related to the celestial sphere, (which you probably found at Wikipedia? it is part of the horizontal coordinate system, here).
However, even though your response was not according to what my post concerned, even so, yes, every single apparent arc of the sun in its paths, as it appears to cross the sky, is proof, each and every day, right in front of your very own eyes, that you are living on a globe that is rotating on a slightly tilted axis while orbiting the sun. I would not yet have gathered enough evidence to be justified in simply stating this on page one of this thread: but I am indeed justified in stating it here and now because of all the evidence which has been gathered and presented thus far herein, regardless of whether or not any flat-earthers have been willing to hear what has been presented in this thread.
That this is proof of a globe is not clear to me.
I appreciate your imput though and am still analyzing it.
We all know that there is no acrc or path of the sun on the globe model. What we see for a heliocentric model is the earth spinning and rotating on a tilted axis around a stationary sun. But what would be the outcome of a globe earth that was spinning and rotating but not tilted at an angle, but where the axis of spin was parallel to the sun and not tilted?
--Dave
That is the very reason why it proves we live on a spinning globe which is tilted on its axis: for indeed there is no real "arc of the sun path" but that is precisely what everyone sees on a daily basis. Those in the northern hemisphere see the path of the sun traversing in an arc across the sky, from east to west, passing through their southern skies, (which is the portion of the sky looking toward the equator for those in the northern hemisphere), while those in the southern hemisphere see the path of the sun traversing in an arc across the sky, from east to west, passing through their northern skies, (which is the portion of the sky looking toward the equator for those in the southern hemisphere). Both the people in the northern hemisphere and those in the southern hemisphere are looking toward the equator and seeing the same sun in its daily courses: the only reason anyone sees any arc in the path of the sun through the sky is because we are all standing on a spinning globe which is tilted on its axis of rotation.
The earth has always been titled at about 23.5 degrees on its axis of rotation according to the oldest and greatest sundial known to man: https://grahamhancock.com/creightons4/
This great sundial is also called a sign by the Prophet Isaiah, (Isa19:19-20).
Meet the oldest and greatest perfectly working sundial known to man:
It even reveals three ways of counting the year: the solar year, (365.242), sidereal year, and the anomalistic year, which are its four base side measurements. Moreover its concave sides at the base reveal the curvature of the earth because the arc they produce is the same. Moreover the Enoch Circle found within its interior, (the so-called "Antechamber"), has a circumference of 365.242P". Moreover the measurement from the center of that circle to the end of the King's Chamber, (with the empty sarcophagus representing the same symbolism as the empty tomb), the straight line measurement is also 365.242. Moreover, according to Josephus, (who is no doubt correct), this great house of the sundial was built before the flood of Noah by the descendants of Adam through the line of Seth. :chuckle:
Last edited:
Try http://kgov.com/360.
Wait, do you mean that the earth's spin is along the same plane as it's orbit around the sun?
The ancient calendars were based on 360-day years, for instance the Sumerian/Babylonian, (and some speculate that it was merely because of the base 60 Sexagesimal system of Babylonian astronomy which they also speculate gave us the 360 degrees in a circle). However according to some, (for instance Chuck Missler), the ancient calendars all changed at around 700 BCE.
Keep in mind that this is only about twenty years after the ten northern tribes were taken captive and deported into Assyria. This is the time of Hezekiah and the turning back the shadow of the sun on the sundial of Ahaz. Moreover it would have likely taken about twenty years for astronomy of the time to catch up if indeed the length of the year had changed. So then, if indeed the year was 360 days before Hezekiah, it apparently changed in the days of Hezekiah: just as the scripture passages which I quoted to Dave in my previous post might suggest.
(Isaiah 38:1-8 ~ 2 Kings 20:1-11)
None of which comport with reality!
It's a very simple experiment to do, Dave. It takes a little time but it isn't hard to do.
An even easier thing to do is to go outside on any clear morning for the next several days and weeks.
If you go outside before Sunrise, you can see Saturn, Mars and Jupiter. Make a note of the arc the three bodies make across the sky because that's pretty much exactly the same arc the Sun is fixing to follow across the sky during the day. This morning was particularly nice because the nearly new Moon was just above the horizon, just before Sunrise and so you had a fourth body marking out that curve and aside from the bright star Antares, they were the only four celestial bodies visible in the sky.
Nothing of what I just said can be explained by the flat-earth delusion. It cannot. Their so-called explanations do not comport at all with reality, which, incidentally, is a primary reason we know that the Earth is not only round but that it orbits the Sun.
Clete
@DFT_Dave
Moreover now that the celestial sphere and horizontal coordinate system has been somewhat explained, and because we know it is nothing more than a tool, a "construct", a projection, (see also below in red), devised as a method for use in celestial navigation as explained in the following post and links provided:
One may therefore easily see that the bogus internet meme which Patrick Jane posted concerning the Astrolabe is a blatant distortion of the truth if not an outright lie:
Red, bold, and underlined emphasis mine:
The Astrolabe:
The astrolabe is a very ancient astronomical computer for solving problems relating to time and the position of the Sun and stars in the sky. Several types of astrolabes have been made. By far the most popular type is the planispheric astrolabe, on which the celestial sphere is projected onto the plane of the equator. A typical old astrolabe was made of brass and was about 6 inches (15 cm) in diameter, although much larger and smaller ones were made.
Astrolabes are used to show how the sky looks at a specific place at a given time. This is done by drawing the sky on the face of the astrolabe and marking it so positions in the sky are easy to find. To use an astrolabe, you adjust the moveable components to a specific date and time. Once set, much of the sky, both visible and invisible, is represented on the face of the instrument. This allows a great many astronomical problems to be solved in a very visual way. Typical uses of the astrolabe include finding the time during the day or night, finding the time of a celestial event such as sunrise or sunset and as a handy reference of celestial positions. Astrolabes were also one of the basic astronomy education tools in the late Middle Ages. Old instruments were also used for astrological purposes. The typical astrolabe was not a navigational instrument although an instrument called the mariner's astrolabe was widely used in the Renaissance. The mariner's astrolabe is simply a ring marked in degrees for measuring celestial altitudes.
The history of the astrolabe begins more than two thousand years ago. The principles of the astrolabe projection were known before 150 B.C., and true astrolabes were made before A.D. 400. The astrolabe was highly developed in the Islamic world by 800 and was introduced to Europe from Islamic Spain (al-Andalus) in the early 12th century. It was the most popular astronomical instrument until about 1650, when it was replaced by more specialized and accurate instruments. Astrolabes are still appreciated for their unique capabilities and their value for astronomy education.
https://www.astrolabes.org/
Moreover now that the celestial sphere and horizontal coordinate system has been somewhat explained, and because we know it is nothing more than a tool, a "construct", a projection, (see also below in red), devised as a method for use in celestial navigation as explained in the following post and links provided:
Altitude & Azimuth: The Horizontal Coordinate System
The horizontal coordinate system, also known as the Alt/Az system, is a method for describing the exact position of objects in the sky, such as planets, the Sun, or the Moon. This system is also used by timeanddate.com to describe the positions of the Sun, the Moon, and the planets of our solar system.
Distance Irrelevant
Based on two coordinates, altitude and azimuth, the horizontal coordinate system provides the general direction in which to find a celestial object. Although the distance of the visible planets, stars, and galaxies differs by billions of light years, the system ignores the depth of space as an object's distance is irrelevant for the purpose of locating it in the sky.
The Celestial Sphere
Imagine the sky as a dome towering above you, its edges resting on the horizon. This is the backdrop the horizontal coordinate system uses to map the sky and describe the positions of its objects. To compare, the geographic coordinate system uses the Earth's surface as a backdrop to determine a position.
In effect, the system also includes the invisible half of the sky that is below the horizon. The dome above you is called the upper hemisphere and the invisible part of the sky below you is the lower hemisphere. Together, they form the celestial sphere, an imaginary globe surrounding you, with you at its center.
https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/horizontal-coordinate-system.html
https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/horizontal-coordinate-system.html
Thus the plane or circle in which the observer stands is nothing more than the latitude position on a globe model imagined as a plane, (the celestial sphere is a "construct" merely used for calculation purposes, celestial navigation). Here is a site explaining the celestial sphere:
http://www.empirenet.com/tajames/astronomy/notes-celestial-sphere.html
Notice in the image file above the horizon line is flat from the position of the observer. I think perhaps this is what you are mistaking as if a flat earth is being assumed. The celestial sphere is an imaginary coordinate system dependent on location, local viewing area, particularly the latitude of the observer upon the globe.
http://www.empirenet.com/tajames/astronomy/notes-celestial-sphere.html
One may therefore easily see that the bogus internet meme which Patrick Jane posted concerning the Astrolabe is a blatant distortion of the truth if not an outright lie:
Again, if you think you've discovered the "death knell" of flat earth, why aren't you on tour making 250,000 a year or working as a nasa spokesman? You are full of yourself if you think you found something that proves a globe and all others are behind and need to catch up to your 29 days of intense research.
Watching "enough" of a video to know the "concept" and all. Really? You're right, the thread is over for you because your mind was made up before you started. BTW, more people would and COULD read your posts if you discovered the concept of of "paragraphs" but you're probably busy proving the globe with the sun in the southern hemisphere or the stars or something. Sundials can ONLY work in flat earth. You're like Mr. Opposite here.
Red, bold, and underlined emphasis mine:
The Astrolabe:
The astrolabe is a very ancient astronomical computer for solving problems relating to time and the position of the Sun and stars in the sky. Several types of astrolabes have been made. By far the most popular type is the planispheric astrolabe, on which the celestial sphere is projected onto the plane of the equator. A typical old astrolabe was made of brass and was about 6 inches (15 cm) in diameter, although much larger and smaller ones were made.
Astrolabes are used to show how the sky looks at a specific place at a given time. This is done by drawing the sky on the face of the astrolabe and marking it so positions in the sky are easy to find. To use an astrolabe, you adjust the moveable components to a specific date and time. Once set, much of the sky, both visible and invisible, is represented on the face of the instrument. This allows a great many astronomical problems to be solved in a very visual way. Typical uses of the astrolabe include finding the time during the day or night, finding the time of a celestial event such as sunrise or sunset and as a handy reference of celestial positions. Astrolabes were also one of the basic astronomy education tools in the late Middle Ages. Old instruments were also used for astrological purposes. The typical astrolabe was not a navigational instrument although an instrument called the mariner's astrolabe was widely used in the Renaissance. The mariner's astrolabe is simply a ring marked in degrees for measuring celestial altitudes.
The history of the astrolabe begins more than two thousand years ago. The principles of the astrolabe projection were known before 150 B.C., and true astrolabes were made before A.D. 400. The astrolabe was highly developed in the Islamic world by 800 and was introduced to Europe from Islamic Spain (al-Andalus) in the early 12th century. It was the most popular astronomical instrument until about 1650, when it was replaced by more specialized and accurate instruments. Astrolabes are still appreciated for their unique capabilities and their value for astronomy education.
https://www.astrolabes.org/
Last edited:
@Sherman - JR, stop telling me what to do. Please show proof for every one of your assertions. Actually, first prove the assertion made by two rabid anti-FE posters here in this thread, the false claim that a sundial CANNOT work on FE, that's what prompted my "spam" as YOU define it. Likely because the "spam" destroys you favorite "planet". Better yet, PROVE THE GLOBE.
If you don't possess the wherewithal to understand how a lighthouse works on the flat open sea, a periscope, and the gyroscope and sundial , that's not my problem. A 5 year old could comprehend. They were posts to different people, get over yourself, you're acting extremely pompous and self righteous.
Go cry to to the mod,typical. I can post any non-profane image I want as many times as I want, stop
postingSPAMMING the same WORDS over and over and over and over and over and over.:allsmile:
So because not many are even willing to engage or address you, concerning your flat earth theory, that makes me "rabid" for engaging you and trying to show you the truth? What your remarks reveal is that you would prefer that no one confront you or even engage you, and rather simply allow you to run around flooding the place with your false flat-earth theories and lame speculations comprised of internet memes that are devoid of knowledge or even a smidgen of common sense. Who really is the cry baby? Who really is rabid when it comes to this topic?
That last video from Chippy scared him.Again, if you think you've discovered the "death knell" of flat earth, why aren't you on tour making 250,000 a year or working as a nasa spokesman? You are full of yourself if you think you found something that proves a globe and all others are behind and need to catch up to your 29 days of intense research.
Watching "enough" of a video to know the "concept" and all. Really? You're right, the thread is over for you because your mind was made up before you started. BTW, more people would and COULD read your posts if you discovered the concept of of "paragraphs" but you're probably busy proving the globe with the sun in the southern hemisphere or the stars or something. Sundials can ONLY work in flat earth. You're like Mr. Opposite here.
Rather than comment on it or post some positive proof against it he lamed out and said it wasn't addressing his argument.
Red bold emphasis mine:
Origins of Astrolabe Theory
The origins of the astrolabe were in classical Greece. Apollonius (ca. 225 BC), the great codifier of conic sections, probably studied the astrolabe projection. The most influential individual on the theory of the astrolabe projection was Hipparchus who was born in Nicaea in Asia Minor (now Iznik in Turkey) about 180 BC but studied and worked on the island of Rhodes. Hipparchus, who also discovered the precession of the equinoxes and was influential in the development of trigonometry, redefined and formalized the projection as a method for solving complex astronomical problems without spherical trigonometry and probably proved its main characteristics. Hipparchus did not invent the astrolabe, but he did refine the projection theory.
The earliest evidence of use of the stereographic projection in a machine is in the writing of the Roman author and architect, Marcus Vitruvius Pollio (ca. 88 - ca. 26 BC), who in De architectura describes an anaphoric clock (probably a clepsydra or water clock) in Alexandria. The clock had a rotating field of stars behind a wire frame indicating the hours of the day. The wire framework (the spider) and the star locations were constructed using the stereographic projection. Similar constructions dated from the first to third century and have been found in Salzburg and northeastern France, so such mechanisms were apparently fairly widespread among Romans. See the page on the anaphoric star disk for a description of a modern recreation of the anaphoric clock.
The first major writer on the projection was the famous Claudius Ptolemy (ca. AD 150) who wrote extensively on it in his work known as the Planisphaerium. There are tantalizing hints in Ptolemy's writing that he may have had an instrument that could justifiably be called an astrolabe. Ptolemy also refined the fundamental geometry of the Earth-Sun system that is used to design astrolabes.
https://www.astrolabes.org/pages/history.htm
Dear wise ones: the astrolabe was no doubt invented among the Greeks who knew by this time in history that the earth was and is a sphere, people like Aristarchus and Eratosthenes, who based their calculations and estimates on the math and geometry introduced before them by people such as Pythagorus, the same people that you and yours are running around all over the internet trying to discredit by calling them occultists and Freemasons, (lol, many centuries before there was any such thing as a Freemason or Illuminist, but I suppose facts apparently do not count in flat-earth internet meme theory).
Dear wise ones: the same Hipparchus who is mentioned in the article above is the same Hipparchus who is credited with discovering the precession of the equinoxes, which can only mean that he knew and understood the earth to be a rotating sphere. Moreover he is considered the founder of trigonometry:
Hipparchus of Nicaea (/hɪˈpɑːrkəs/; Greek: Ἵππαρχος, Hipparkhos; c. 190 – c. 120 BC) was a Greek astronomer, geographer, and mathematician. He is considered the founder of trigonometry[1] but is most famous for his incidental discovery of precession of the equinoxes.[2] Hipparchus was born in Nicaea, Bithynia (now İznik, Turkey), and probably died on the island of Rhodes. He is known to have been a working astronomer at least from 162 to 127 BC.[3] Hipparchus is considered the greatest ancient astronomical observer and, by some, the greatest overall astronomer of antiquity. He was the first whose quantitative and accurate models for the motion of the Sun and Moon survive. For this he certainly made use of the observations and perhaps the mathematical techniques accumulated over centuries by the Babylonians and by Meton of Athens (5th century BC), Timocharis, Aristyllus, Aristarchus of Samos and Eratosthenes, among others.[4] He developed trigonometry and constructed trigonometric tables, and he solved several problems of spherical trigonometry. With his solar and lunar theories and his trigonometry, he may have been the first to develop a reliable method to predict solar eclipses. His other reputed achievements include the discovery and measurement of Earth's precession, the compilation of the first comprehensive star catalog of the western world, and possibly the invention of the astrolabe, also of the armillary sphere, which he used during the creation of much of the star catalogue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparchus
Dear wise ones, please take a closer look at the precession of the equinoxes:
Axial Precession
In astronomy, axial precession is a gravity-induced, slow, and continuous change in the orientation of an astronomical body's rotational axis. In particular, it can refer to the gradual shift in the orientation of Earth's axis of rotation in a cycle of approximately 26,000 years.[1] This is similar to the precession of a spinning-top, with the axis traceing out a pair of cones joined at their apices The term "precession" typically refers only to this largest part of the motion; other changes in the alignment of Earth's axis—nutation and polar motion—are much smaller in magnitude.
Earth's precession was historically called the precession of the equinoxes, because the equinoxes moved westward along the ecliptic relative to the fixed stars, opposite to the yearly motion of the Sun along the ecliptic. This term is still used in non-technical discussions, that is, when detailed mathematics are absent. Historically,[2] the discovery of the precession of the equinoxes is usually attributed in the west to the Hellenistic-era (second-century BCE) astronomer, Hipparchus, although there are claims of its earlier discovery, such as in the Indian text, Vedanga Jyotisha, dating from 700 BC.[citation needed] With improvements in the ability to calculate the gravitational force between planets during the first half of the nineteenth century, it was recognized that the ecliptic itself moved slightly, which was named planetary precession, as early as 1863, while the dominant component was named lunisolar precession.[3] Their combination was named general precession, instead of precession of the equinoxes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession
Dear wise ones, please take a closer look at the Armillary Sphere:
Armillary Sphere
An armillary sphere (variations are known as spherical astrolabe, armilla, or armil) is a model of objects in the sky (on the celestial sphere), consisting of a spherical framework of rings, centred on Earth or the Sun, that represent lines of celestial longitude and latitude and other astronomically important features, such as the ecliptic. As such, it differs from a celestial globe, which is a smooth sphere whose principal purpose is to map the constellations. It was invented separately in ancient Greece and ancient China, with later use in the Islamic world and Medieval Europe. With the Earth as center, an armillary sphere is known as Ptolemaic. With the Sun as center, it is known as Copernican.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillary_sphere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillary_sphere
Dear wise ones: :rotfl:
Last edited:
The reality is that the horizon never rises to meet your eye. Our eyes perceive that it does because it is always in our peripheral vision. Given the radius of the Earth is so large that our range of vision only allows us to perceive it as plane, the horizon "behaves' the same on either surface.
Fun fact: In the Utah desert is the Great Salt flats. It is the "flattest" surface on the planet. On that salt flat is a 10 mile track that is used to set land speed records. From the start line it is impossible to see the finish line, it is hidden behind the horizon. Why would that be?
That would most likely be because it is not a body of water, (emitting much more vapor, that is, gases), and therefore there is probably far less atmospheric refraction occurring at the area around eye level over the salt flats. That is also likely why so much of the flat earth meme, when it comes to this portion of the subject matter, consists of pictures and images of cities as viewed from miles away over large bodies of water. I suspect that the laser tests purporting to supposedly prove a flat earth are also not reliable for the same reason, (refraction). I saw one laser test video where at first the laser beam hit the water and bent upward off into the sky: the laser beam reflected off the surface of the water, and that tells me that the laser beam might also be susceptible to atmospheric refraction which would cause the beam to follow the curvature of the earth even though it might not be detected, (or might easily be hidden by someone who understood what was going on and did not wish to admit it).
Denying the most basic and obvious human perception that the horizon line is at eye level is the beginning of the globe deception.
--Dave
No, Dave, it's not at eye level. It's the distance from your feet to your eyes, plus however high up you are, below you.
I will be retired in another month. I will be moving to NJ. As the weather warms up, I will be happy to do some star, sun, and moon watching, between spending more time with grandchildren and afternoon naps. Not that I will need naps but they will obviously help me stay up later into the night for better star gazing. :nightall:
--Dave
All animals look downward at the ground. Man is the only creature to naturally look above the horizon.
"The terms “horizon line” and “eye level” are often used synonymously. Horizon line/eye level refer to a physical/visual boundary where sky separates from land or water. It is the actual height of the viewer’s eyes when looking at an object, interior scene, or an exterior scene."--Basic Perspective: Eye Level and Horizon Line
--Dave
Using a cartoon to prove your point doesn't work, Dave.
I can prove to you, or rather, you can show yourself, that the horizon is not at eye level.
Set up your camera, make sure the camera and the pivot point of whatever stand you use is completely level. Now, look through your camera lens and rotate it in a circle. If your camera (and pivot point) is level, the center of your camera will NEVER dip below the horizon.
- Status