The Death of Religion

[Robert Pate]

While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the Holy of Holies from the top to the bottom. This was a very significant event.

"And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake and rocks rent" Matthew 27:51.

The destruction of the Holy of Holies signified the end of the Old Testament law, covenants and the Jewish religion, which was Judaism. All religions come from Judaism. Judaism is the mother of all religions. This is why Paul taught that the Jews were now to live by faith and not by law, rules or religion. "The Just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.

This is what Hebrews 8:6-13 is about. It is about a new way of living because the old way has been abolished. Jesus has abolished the law. Where there is no law there is no religion. Where there is no law there is no judgment. No law and no judgment means there is no religion.

Religion is man's preoccupation with his own spirituallity. It is all about him. Calvinist talk about Calvinism. Catholics talk about Catholicism. Religious people believe that they are saved by what they believe. Their doctrine is their salvation. We are not saved by what we believe, we are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus. The Jews said that the Torah was the way, the truth and the life. Many religious people think that their religion is the way, the truth and the life.

When Jesus died on the cross all of the old Adamic humanity died with him, Romans 6:6. Including the Jewish religion. All has been done away with.

THE RESURRECTION IS THE BEGINNING OF GOD'S NEW HUMANITY

When Jesus walked out of Joseph's new tomb God's new humanity walked out with him.

This is why Paul wrote, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, HE IS A NEW CREATION: old things have passed away (meaning the law, the covenants and the Jewish religion) Behold all things have become new" 2 Corinthians 5:17.

This is how God has reconciled us and the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, who is God's new creation and our new humanity.

No one needs to be predestinated. No one needs to join the Catholic church. No one needs to do anything, because... "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" and not by rules, laws or religion. Saving faith is faith in the doing and dying of Jesus for your salvation and not in a dead religion.

 

[nikolai_42]

While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the Holy of Holies from the top to the bottom. This was a very significant event.

"And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake and rocks rent" Matthew 27:51.

The destruction of the Holy of Holies signified the end of the Old Testament law, covenants and the Jewish religion, which was Judaism. All religions come from Judaism. Judaism is the mother of all religions. This is why Paul taught that the Jews were now to live by faith and not by law, rules or religion. "The Just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.

How is Judaism the mother of all religions? If that's the case, then no religion could come before it. But many eastern religions predate it.

This is what Hebrews 8:6-13 is about. It is about a new way of living because the old way has been abolished. Jesus has abolished the law. Where there is no law there is no religion. Where there is no law there is no judgment. No law and no judgment means there is no religion.

You do realize that there is a law in Christ....

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:2

....so does that make true Christianity a religion? Even Paul said the Law was good :

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Romans 7:7-16

The Law clearly has a purpose. But men being carnal, use it incorrectly. The Law is a mirror and a signpost to point us to Christ - it always has been. But before Christ came, Israel was under "tutors and governors" (Gal 4:2) - or, to be more direct, a "schoolmaster to bring us to Christ" (Gal 3:24-25). So temporally, Israel was undergoing that "tutelage" and learning what the prophet said : "The just shall live by faith". (Hab 2:4). So in a very real sense, this was not a new thing. Even Abraham recognized this (before even the Law was given!):

And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15:6

And as such...

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Galatians 3:7-9

So the supposed mutual exclusivity of the law and the gospel totally miss what is being taught in Hebrews and the Lord. For He said :

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17

Once fufilled, the Law isn't useless - but its satisfaction being in Christ means it is now made manifest to all :

Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
2 Timothy 1:8-10

So while we are not justified by our works - not justified by the Law - we do find it as necessary to act as a mirror and a goad. It pointed (and continues to point) to Christ.

You can't make it an either/or proposition. The Law is not a thing of the past - only our understanding of it (in Christ).

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

And we had it all the time...in the Law. The Law, however, was (and is) powerless to effect this. That's the difference. But it does describe what loving God looks like.

Religion is man's preoccupation with his own spirituallity. It is all about him. Calvinist talk about Calvinism. Catholics talk about Catholicism. Religious people believe that they are saved by what they believe. Their doctrine is their salvation. We are not saved by what we believe, we are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus. The Jews said that the Torah was the way, the truth and the life. Many religious people think that their religion is the way, the truth and the life.

When Jesus died on the cross all of the old Adamic humanity died with him, Romans 6:6. Including the Jewish religion. All has been done away with.

Do you believe we need to repent? Isn't that a "work"? Yet it is necessary. How do we even come to that without the Law?

THE RESURRECTION IS THE BEGINNING OF GOD'S NEW HUMANITY

When Jesus walked out of Joseph's new tomb God's new humanity walked out with him.

This is why Paul wrote, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, HE IS A NEW CREATION: old things have passed away (meaning the law, the covenants and the Jewish religion) Behold all things have become new" 2 Corinthians 5:17.

This is how God has reconciled us and the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, who is God's new creation and our new humanity.

No one needs to be predestinated. No one needs to join the Catholic church. No one needs to do anything, because... "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" and not by rules, laws or religion. Saving faith is faith in the doing and dying of Jesus for your salvation and not in a dead religion.

Again, do sinners need to repent?

 

[jamie]

Jesus has abolished the law.

Jesus summed up God's law in two commandments, love toward God and love toward others.

Are you saying Jesus abolished love toward God and neighbor?

 

[Cruciform]

Religion is man's preoccupation with his own spirituallity. It is all about him. Calvinist talk about Calvinism. Catholics talk about Catholicism.

...Pate talks about his preferred interpretations of the Bible... :yawn:

 

[Robert Pate]

How is Judaism the mother of all religions? If that's the case, then no religion could come before it. But many eastern religions predate it.



You do realize that there is a law in Christ....

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:2

....so does that make true Christianity a religion? Even Paul said the Law was good :

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Romans 7:7-16

The Law clearly has a purpose. But men being carnal, use it incorrectly. The Law is a mirror and a signpost to point us to Christ - it always has been. But before Christ came, Israel was under "tutors and governors" (Gal 4:2) - or, to be more direct, a "schoolmaster to bring us to Christ" (Gal 3:24-25). So temporally, Israel was undergoing that "tutelage" and learning what the prophet said : "The just shall live by faith". (Hab 2:4). So in a very real sense, this was not a new thing. Even Abraham recognized this (before even the Law was given!):

And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15:6

And as such...

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Galatians 3:7-9

So the supposed mutual exclusivity of the law and the gospel totally miss what is being taught in Hebrews and the Lord. For He said :

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17

Once fufilled, the Law isn't useless - but its satisfaction being in Christ means it is now made manifest to all :

Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
2 Timothy 1:8-10

So while we are not justified by our works - not justified by the Law - we do find it as necessary to act as a mirror and a goad. It pointed (and continues to point) to Christ.

You can't make it an either/or proposition. The Law is not a thing of the past - only our understanding of it (in Christ).

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

And we had it all the time...in the Law. The Law, however, was (and is) powerless to effect this. That's the difference. But it does describe what loving God looks like.



Do you believe we need to repent? Isn't that a "work"? Yet it is necessary. How do we even come to that without the Law?



Again, do sinners need to repent?

Repentance is something that we do. There is no saving merit in repentance. Repentance is on going through out the Christians life. We are always pressing upward, but we never arrive because we are sinners, Romans 3:10.

For the Christian there are no laws and rules to live by, because "The Just Shall Live By Faith". The reason that the Christian lives by faith is because he is complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. The work of salvation is a finished work. He is now resting in what Christ has accomplished in his name and on his behalf, Hebrews 4:10.

Paul said that the law is for sinners, 1 Timothy 1:9, 10. If any of that fits you then the law is for you.

A good son does not need instructions. He knows what is right and what is wrong and he always does those things that pleases his Father.

 

[Ben Masada]

While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the Holy of Holies from the top to the bottom. This was a very significant event. "And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake and rocks rent" Matthew 27:51)

Yes, probably, a very significant event for Paul who needed something like that to promote his policy of Replacement Theology. Besides, if you ask a Jew about this, there is absolutely nothing of the sort in the Talmud which was written from 200 BCE and until 200 ACE. For such an event not to be in the Talmud, it is only obvious that it was interpolated as a pious forgery into the NT.

The destruction of the Holy of Holies signified the end of the Old Testament law, covenants and the Jewish religion, which was Judaism. All religions come from Judaism. Judaism is the mother of all religions. This is why Paul taught that the Jews were now to live by faith and not by law, rules or religion. "The Just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.

It just happens that the destruction of the Holy of Holies occurred 40 years after Jesus was crucified; in the year 70 by the Romans. And the OT Law has remained to this day in fulfillment of what Jesus said that till heaven and earth pass away, not a single commandment of the Law would pass away. (Mat. 5:18, 19)

It just happened that Jesus was a Jew whose faith was Judaism which remains to this day while Jesus has passed away 2000 years ago.

Not a single religion comes from Judaism but rather from paganism; Greek paganism as Christianity was the main one. (Acts 11:26)

Jews cannot live by faith. Only the followers of Paul can as he decided that they should walk by faith and not by sight. By sight is to walk with understanding; by faith is to leave the understanding with Paul. (II Cor. 5:7) That's why Jews walk rather by sight than by faith.

 

[Robert Pate]

Jesus summed up God's law in two commandments, love toward God and love toward others.

Are you saying Jesus abolished love toward God and neighbor?

Jesus abolished the law. The call now is to live by Spirit and not the letter of the law.

Those who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit will strive to love his neighbor. Even when his neighbor is not lovable.

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes, probably, a very significant event for Paul who needed something like that to promote his policy of Replacement Theology. Besides, if you ask a Jew about this, there is absolutely nothing of the sort in the Talmud which was written from 200 BCE and until 200 ACE. For such an event not to be in the Talmud, it is only obvious that it was interpolated as a pious forgery into the NT.



It just happens that the destruction of the Holy of Holies occurred 40 years after Jesus was crucified; in the year 70 by the Romans. And the OT Law has remained to this day in fulfillment of what Jesus said that till heaven and earth pass away, not a single commandment of the Law would pass away. (Mat. 5:18, 19)

It just happened that Jesus was a Jew whose faith was Judaism which remains to this day while Jesus has passed away 2000 years ago.

Not a single religion comes from Judaism but rather from paganism; Greek paganism as Christianity was the main one. (Acts 11:26)

Jews cannot live by faith. Only the followers of Paul can as he decided that they should walk by faith and not by sight. By sight is to walk with understanding; by faith is to leave the understanding with Paul. (II Cor. 5:7) That's why Jews walk rather by sight than by faith.

Judaism has been replaced by Christianity.

You are following a dead religion.

 

[Ben Masada]

Jesus abolished the law. The call now is to live by Spirit and not the letter of the law.

Those who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit will strive to love his neighbor. Even when his neighbor is not lovable.

In his Sermon of the Mount, when Jesus addressed the Jews by saying, "Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake" in Mat. 5:11, he was definitely including himself because he said "I have not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets" and even to this day we have Christians implying that he was lying because he did abolish the Law.

So, today Robert implies that Christians must love their neighbors even if they are not lovable! I find very strange the way they love their neighbors with pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust. Throughout History, millions of Jews have been murdered by Christianity and Robert considers them lovers of Jews even if the Jews are not lovable. HaShem have mercy on us for such a love.

 

[jamie]

The call now is to live by Spirit and not the letter of the law.

That was always the case.

Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart and be stiff-necked no longer. (Deuteronomy 10:16 NKJV)​

Paul said the law is spiritual.

For we know that the law is spiritual... (Romans 7:14 NKJV)​

Since the law was spiritual, keeping it required God's Spirit. The problem with the law was the people. So God has given us a new law referred to as the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:2 NKJV)

 

[chair]

Judaism has been replaced by Christianity.

You are following a dead religion.

Somebody forgot to send us the memo. We are alive and kicking. That probably perturbs you.

 

[nikolai_42]

Repentance is something that we do. There is no saving merit in repentance. Repentance is on going through out the Christians life. We are always pressing upward, but we never arrive because we are sinners, Romans 3:10.

For the Christian there are no laws and rules to live by, because "The Just Shall Live By Faith". The reason that the Christian lives by faith is because he is complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. The work of salvation is a finished work. He is now resting in what Christ has accomplished in his name and on his behalf, Hebrews 4:10.

Paul said that the law is for sinners, 1 Timothy 1:9, 10. If any of that fits you then the law is for you.

A good son does not need instructions. He knows what is right and what is wrong and he always does those things that pleases his Father.

Okay...but how do you have repentance if you've done away with the Law altogether?

And what about Judaism being the mother of all religions? Where do you get that?

 

[Robert Pate]

Okay...but how do you have repentance if you've done away with the Law altogether?

And what about Judaism being the mother of all religions? Where do you get that?

Repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit.

Since God's law is written of the Christians heart by the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 8:10, he is still subject to the law, but that does not mean that he has to live by it or follow it.

This is what Paul meant in Romans 7:22, 23.

The Christian life is a struggle because of the two natures. He is sinner and at the same time he is a saint.

Catholicism is a law based religion just like Judaism.

 

[Robert Pate]

Somebody forgot to send us the memo. We are alive and kicking. That probably perturbs you.

The memo was the New Testament. Have you read it?

 

[Robert Pate]

That was always the case.

Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart and be stiff-necked no longer. (Deuteronomy 10:16 NKJV)​

Paul said the law is spiritual.

For we know that the law is spiritual... (Romans 7:14 NKJV)​

Since the law was spiritual, keeping it required God's Spirit. The problem with the law was the people. So God has given us a new law referred to as the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:2 NKJV)

Nope! No new laws. "The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" means that the "Just shall live by faith" and not by laws, rules or religion.

We live by faith in the Gospel. In the Gospel we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

 

[Robert Pate]

In his Sermon of the Mount, when Jesus addressed the Jews by saying, "Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake" in Mat. 5:11, he was definitely including himself because he said "I have not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets" and even to this day we have Christians implying that he was lying because he did abolish the Law.

So, today Robert implies that Christians must love their neighbors even if they are not lovable! I find very strange the way they love their neighbors with pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust. Throughout History, millions of Jews have been murdered by Christianity and Robert considers them lovers of Jews even if the Jews are not lovable. HaShem have mercy on us for such a love.

Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of God's law, Romans 3:21.

There is no need for a written law simply because Jesus is God's law incarnate in human flesh.

The Holy Spirit has replaced the law, Hebrews 8:10.

Some say that the reason the Jewish people have suffered severe persecution is because they rejected their Messiah and have brought judgment upon themselves. What say you about that?

 

[Ben Masada]

Somebody forgot to send us the memo. We are alive and kicking. That probably perturbs you.

Shalom Chair! I hope you are not addressing to me the post above because it comes from post #11 and it is not mine. I could never have posted such a nonsense. Someone must be playing a bad game and posting it under other people's name.

 

[Ben Masada]

1 - Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of God's law, Romans 3:21.
2 - There is no need for a written law simply because Jesus is God's law incarnate in human flesh.
3 - The Holy Spirit has replaced the law, Hebrews 8:10.
4 - Some say that the reason the Jewish people have suffered severe persecution is because they rejected their Messiah and have brought judgment upon themselves. What say you about that?

1 - That's absolutely not true as it is from the gospel of Paul, a gospel of Replacement Theology. He even condemned the apostles of Jesus as false apostles for preaching a different gospel from his and a different Jesus that had nothing to do with the Jesus he was preaching. (II Cor. 11:4-6, 13)

2 - This is simply idolatry of the kind in Deut. 4:15,16.

3 - Again, according to the gospel of Paul who was an outlaw. Jesus rather came to confirm the Law down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

4 - What I have to say is that, according to Jer. 46:28, of the other nations the Lord will eventually finish them up while the Jewish People will be only chastised as we deserve.

 

[jamie]

Nope! No new laws. "The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" means that the "Just shall live by faith" and not by laws, rules or religion.

Well, Robert, if you ever decide to love God and love neighbor you will be fulfilling the whole purpose of the law you say was abolished.

 

[jzeidler]

While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the Holy of Holies from the top to the bottom. This was a very significant event.



"And behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake and rocks rent" Matthew 27:51.



The destruction of the Holy of Holies signified the end of the Old Testament law, covenants and the Jewish religion, which was Judaism. All religions come from Judaism. Judaism is the mother of all religions. This is why Paul taught that the Jews were now to live by faith and not by law, rules or religion. "The Just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.



This is what Hebrews 8:6-13 is about. It is about a new way of living because the old way has been abolished. Jesus has abolished the law. Where there is no law there is no religion. Where there is no law there is no judgment. No law and no judgment means there is no religion.



Religion is man's preoccupation with his own spirituallity. It is all about him. Calvinist talk about Calvinism. Catholics talk about Catholicism. Religious people believe that they are saved by what they believe. Their doctrine is their salvation. We are not saved by what we believe, we are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus. The Jews said that the Torah was the way, the truth and the life. Many religious people think that their religion is the way, the truth and the life.



When Jesus died on the cross all of the old Adamic humanity died with him, Romans 6:6. Including the Jewish religion. All has been done away with.



THE RESURRECTION IS THE BEGINNING OF GOD'S NEW HUMANITY



When Jesus walked out of Joseph's new tomb God's new humanity walked out with him.



This is why Paul wrote, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, HE IS A NEW CREATION: old things have passed away (meaning the law, the covenants and the Jewish religion) Behold all things have become new" 2 Corinthians 5:17.



This is how God has reconciled us and the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, who is God's new creation and our new humanity.



No one needs to be predestinated. No one needs to join the Catholic church. No one needs to do anything, because... "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" and not by rules, laws or religion. Saving faith is faith in the doing and dying of Jesus for your salvation and not in a dead religion.

Well said. Keep it coming!