Which makes it all the more curious. Why they would risk their eternal lives when the loving God of the Universe has offered a way out.
The Christ Rejectors
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Bear in mind that I'm simply echoing what certain hyper Calvinists believe.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Your "loving God" has put them in a burning building to begin with effectively by creating people with those parameters in place. Would you thank a rescuer for throwing a life raft in the water after he's thrown you in the sea?
They're not in the burning building yet.
God wants people to love Him and obey Him. But most refuse to.
Why do you think that God purposefully threw people into the sea? People throw themselves in when they break His law, which is written on their hearts. He's putting his arm out towards them and asking them to take His hand.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Effectively they are if they're born into a life with a sentence of "hell" hanging over them if they don't find the right path in one short existence.
Or rather, just aren't convinced that one exists. Even Thomas needed proof that Jesus had risen from the dead, was he condemned for that? Humans have doubts, it's part of human nature and you might even find yourself having them at some point in life.
Because setting things up in the way you believe requires God to have created the parameters before life was even born, knowing full well the foibles and fragility that would encapsulate human nature. According to you, there's a loving God who created a realm of suffering for those who didn't find the "narrow path" in a handful of years on this plain.
They're not.
People are born innocent. If they die in their innocence, then they still have the opportunity, with full knowledge of His existence, of either accepting Him and loving Him, or hating Him and rejecting Him.
Which is still a rejection of God.
God exists, whether someone is convinced of that fact or not.
I think you'll find that many, if not most, atheists grew up with at least some knowledge of God. Turning to atheism because they were later taught that He doesn't exist, or taught that He might not or probably doesn't exist, is a rejection of Him.
Now, obviously, that doesn't mean that ALL atheists grew up that way, but one would be hard pressed to find someone in this world of 7.5 billion people in today's connected society who has never heard of God or Jesus Christ. Not impossible, by any means, but extremely difficult.
Which is why I said, at some level, it's a rejection of God even for those who have doubts.
Having doubts that someone you had grown to love had risen from the dead seems a little bit different than having doubts that the creator of the universe exists.
I'm gonna call non-sequitur on this one.
Of course people have doubts. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, that people don't.
My question is why would someone reject the God who loves them enough to send His Son to die for them, to save them from eternal punishment.
Which parameters? What did God know?
Do you think I'm a Calvinist? I've told you before, I'm not.
Incorrect.
According to me (and I'm just telling you what the Bible says) there's a loving God who created a place for people to go who reject Him and break His law.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
How does that work exactly? Are they put on some existential plain where they've reached adulthood and with full mental faculty and presented with a bible?
How do you know? Because you've read it? I'm not an atheist but that kind of declaration isn't going to fly as an argument. A Muslim could declare the same as you and with equal surety.
Define "knowledge". School assemblies? Sunday school? Sure, most atheists will have some familiarity with the bible along with the Quran.
Or Allah etc. Given the extremes of certain religious doctrines and fundamentalism it's hardly surprising that people can get cynical and dismiss it and that's obviously not just Christianity either. Doctrines such as the one you ascribe to can and does turn people away from belief in such a god because it's horrific and bereft of love. Do you think chick tracts serve any good purpose?
Which you may have at some stage.
Why?
Then that's a cop out.
Because the notion of cruelty and abhorrent suffering is anathema to most people JR. Have you any idea how many people are turned away from belief because of "turn or burn" doctrines and the like? Belief through fear doesn't tend to work for very long. Again, you're practically arguing that people should be grateful for someone who rescues them for a fire they started themselves. Nobody gets a say in being born into this life, never mind what could await after it.
No, I don't think you're a Calvinist and where it comes to parameters then what's your disconnect? Creating billions of people and giving them a short life on earth to get the right path to avoid some designed state of suffering would inevitably result in a load of folk being put into it. That's not love.
No, it wasn't incorrect and if you think there's anything loving about what you believe then you should reacquaint yourself with the biblical definition of love. It's in Corinthians.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
He's not getting "the same in kind". I haven't returned his neg reps of "hi" and the like as I can't be done with the playground stuff that can have a tendency to go on on here at times. I don't neg rep full stop and I don't generally bother with GM as it is so I'm real not sure why you think I was being so "disrespectful" in response.
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Good enough, then.
Go in peace.
Place those that would tempt you to do otherwise than what we are commanded or inflame your passions on ignore.
AMR
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Ah, I don't have anyone on the ignore list. I simply choose as to who to disregard and that's only the trolls.
The Bible teaches that people are born sinners, Psalm 51:5.
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon ALL MEN, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.
You're forgetting an important verse.
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. - Ezekiel 18:20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel18:20&version=NKJV
What sin has a baby in the womb committed? None. Therefore, as Paul affirms of himself, the baby is alive to God, and innocent, and has not sinned.
I recommend you read the following.
http://kgov.com/age-of-accountability
God does not send babies to hell. That is what Calvinist believe.
There is an age of accountability, I think that it is somewhere between 5 and 10 years old. Nevertheless, we are all still born in sin and must repent and turn to Christ to be saved when we come to the realization that we have sinned against God.
beloved57
Well-known member
False comment nowhere in scripture,
Care to elaborate?
Reject God? How foolish.
The Father judges no one. (John 5:22)
Jesus does not judge unbelievers. (John 12:47-48)
Your Calvinist God is an unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant. That is why you don't trust him.
beloved57
Well-known member
You always trying pawn off your pateism falsehoods as truth !
It is indeed foolish to reject God.
Ok, and?
Did you notice that He was speaking in the present tense?
Because He didn't come to judge... THE FIRST TIME HE CAME!
He came to save the first time He came.
The second time is when He will judge the world.
[JESUS]“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”[/JESUS] - Matthew 25:31-46 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew25:31-46&version=NKJV
Sounds pretty judgmental to me...