ECT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH & DOCTRINAL AUTHORITY: Three Sources
- Thread starter Cruciform
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my favorite is tradition
don't change a thing
don't change a thing
Cruciform
New member
Tradition is simply the word of God (Divine Revelation) in unwritten form, while Scripture is the word of God in written form.
ORTHODOX TRADITION Mark 7:1-9
1 Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem.
2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault.
3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders.
4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?"
6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men-- the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."
9 And He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
1 Cor 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Acts 4:12
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
John 10:8-11
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
Matt 15:1-9
1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying,
2 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4 "For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"--
6 'then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
(NKJ)
1 Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem.
2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault.
3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders.
4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?"
6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men-- the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."
9 And He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
1 Cor 3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Acts 4:12
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
John 10:8-11
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
Matt 15:1-9
1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying,
2 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4 "For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"--
6 'then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
(NKJ)
Aimiel
Well-known member
Tradition is my favorite sin of the RCC...
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
My second-favorite is their repetition of prayers over and over and over and over and over...
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
My second-favorite is their repetition of prayers over and over and over and over and over...
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Cruciform
New member
Tradition is one of my favorite apostolic doctrines of the Catholic Church...
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).
Addressed here. Try again.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
oatmeal
Well-known member
Tradition is one of my favorite apostolic doctrines of the Catholic Church...
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).
Addressed here. Try again.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
And Paul wrote those traditions down where?
Where were they written down so that they could be passed along?
What did Paul write that we have?
Oral traditions are easily hearsay.
Where is the record of these traditions if not scripture?
oatmeal
Well-known member
Thoughts, comments, questions?
It is clear that you do not adhere to scripture, others and myself have pointed that out time and time again.
The traditions Paul referred were eventually written down and are scripture, which as pointed out above, you tend to ignore unless you can misinterpret to your advantage.
Your popes and bishops, etc, have no teaching authority unless they are believers in scripture. Which has been shown time and time again that they, for the most part, do not respect scripture
dreadknought
New member
Historical fallacy. The Roman catholic church isn't in the 1st century,2nd, 3rd..... never was.
Thoughts, comments, questions?
revpete
New member
Well, any religious body that puts tradition and the teachings of men on an equal footing with the inspired Word of God is on a loser from the start! Where is the proof the teaching of the RC Magisterium is infallible?
παράδοσις {par-ad'-os-is} this is the word used for tradition in 2Thess 2:15 and is used 13 times in the NT and in all cases is used of the Jewish traditionary Law. Which, as we know our Lord condemned in no time uncertain terms!
Pete
παράδοσις {par-ad'-os-is} this is the word used for tradition in 2Thess 2:15 and is used 13 times in the NT and in all cases is used of the Jewish traditionary Law. Which, as we know our Lord condemned in no time uncertain terms!
Pete
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yours is not the only church. I hold to the traditions of my church, too. We don't worship idols or allow them in the building. We don't repeat prayers over and over. We don't dress in funny costumes to cause people to think we're holy or special. All are equal before God. We don't worship crackers. We don't believe that our traditions are perfect and could change, should God teach us differently.
Posting links to old posts doesn't help your cause, it just shows that you're too lazy to try to defend your beliefs.
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Cruciform
New member
You falsely assume that all apostolic Tradition was written down, or that it needed to be written in order to be passed along. This assumption is itself merely a tradition that you have derived from your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect.
Tradition is all that the Church believes and teaches, and is contained in the written texts of Scripture, the content of the Christian Liturgy, conciliar documents and decrees, papal pronouncements, etc. Perhaps the best, most readily-accessible expression of Christian Tradition can be found in the Catechism of he Catholic Church.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
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Cruciform
New member
"...do not adhere to oatmeal's preferred interpretations of Scripture," you mean. Big difference there.
Now go ahead and post your proof for this completely unsubstantiated assertion.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Cruciform
New member
Who said anything about the "Roman" Catholic Church? I'm talking about the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself in 33 A.D., and which has existed in every century since, down to our own day.
Cruciform
New member
Apostolic Tradition is itself the word of God (1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Thess. 2:15; 1 Cor. 11:2).
See this.
In such passages as 2 Thess. 2:15 and 1 Cor. 11:2, paradosis refers to Apostolic Tradition---teachings handed on orally by the apostles---and is actually commanded by St. Paul. Surely, Paul would not command believers to follow the Jewish Law Code...? No, rather this is binding Christian doctrine passed along by the apostles in unwritten form.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
dreadknought
New member
I'm sorry, this comment of yours, from my limited experience, is a historical fallicy.