The Birth Control Thread

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by keypurr

philosophizer Quote
-I believe that life begins at conception.

As food for thought, you believe that life begins a conseption, OK.

Now when does a fetus become a person?

That's a false distiction. There's no reason not to call a developing human being a person at any stage of development. That is an argument manufactured by abortion proponents. And it is an argument pulled out of thin air.

But if you want to make that argument, first explain why someone would want to make the distiction between a developing human being and a "person."

Is it murder if it is not a person?

You mean like if it's a tree stump or a rock? Yeah, that wouldn't be murder.

Why would we want to call it anything other than a person?

How about the health and welfare of the mother?

But why would this question even matter if it were not a person? Isn't that the real reason for wanting to reject that title? To make other questions "easier"?

 

[philosophizer]

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Originally posted by wholearmor

So you believe God would allow you to have more children than you feel you could raise properly?

I know this woman. She has several children and has homeschooled since the first. Now, she's very smart, and should be able to handle that task easily. And she should be smart enough to handle her time and her money too. But she's also lazy, selfish, and has a very bad temper.

Her kids are very smart too, but they still suffer from her laziness. They don't receive the attention in their schoolwork that they should be getting.

I heard her say once that she always knew that for whatever areas she was lacking in bringing up her kids, God would supplement.

I heard that and thought: NO! That's just an excuse for neglect. That's not the right attitude for parents to have --especially homeschooling parents. If there's an area you're lacking in, you should get off your butt and get better at it, or else look elsewhere for ways to supplement it yourself. God provides, and we certainly must rely on that. But we can't exchange that provision for responsibility.

A parent cannot just abandon their responsibility to rely on God's provision. There's a quote from the movie "The Last Samuri" that goes something like this:
-"You believe a man can change his destiny?"
-"I think a man does what he can until his destiny is revealed."

Getting to my point-- I think that relying on God's provision and accepting our own responsibility are two separate, but interwoven things. We must rely on God and what he provides for us, but also remember that we are part of the means of that provision. We can't be lax and irresponsible. God gave us brains to think and to act and to take responsibility for ourselves within the context of relying on His provision.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

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Originally posted by philosophizer

I know this woman. She has several children and has homeschooled since the first. Now, she's very smart, and should be able to handle that task easily. And she should be smart enough to handle her time and her money too. But she's also lazy, selfish, and has a very bad temper.

Her kids are very smart too, but they still suffer from her laziness. They don't receive the attention in their schoolwork that they should be getting.

I heard her say once that she always knew that for whatever areas she was lacking in bringing up her kids, God would supplement.

I heard that and thought: NO! That's just an excuse for neglect. That's not the right attitude for parents to have --especially homeschooling parents. If there's an area you're lacking in, you should get off your butt and get better at it, or else look elsewhere for ways to supplement it yourself. God provides, and we certainly must rely on that. But we can't exchange that provision for responsibility.

A parent cannot just abandon their responsibility to rely on God's provision. There's a quote from the movie "The Last Samuri" that goes something like this:
-"You believe a man can change his destiny?"
-"I think a man does what he can until his destiny is revealed."

Getting to my point-- I think that relying on God's provision and accepting our own responsibility are two separate, but interwoven things. We must rely on God and what he provides for us, but also remember that we are part of the means of that provision. We can't be lax and irresponsible. God gave us brains to think and to act and to take responsibility for ourselves within the context of relying on His provision.

So what you are saying is God in his wisdom never creates a child that shouldn't be here, but we can be unjust to our treasures that God bestows.

True, and I am glad my mother and father had me, no matter how bad they might have been, when it came to parenting.

God did make up for it. He had me in his hands the whole time!

 

[keypurr]

philosophizer quote
But if you want to make that argument, first explain why someone would want to make the distiction between a developing human being and a "person."
---------------------------------------------------
My friend I am not making an argument mearly asking a question. If you read my last post you might have an idea why I asked.

I don't see things as black or white. A seed is not a tree. When does it become a tree? The human body is very complex. There are no simple answers.

 

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by keypurr

I don't see things as black or white. A seed is not a tree. When does it become a tree?

Once a seed has separated from the tree and begins to grow on its own, is it still a seed?

The human body is very complex.

Yup.

There are no simple answers.

Why not? Because the body is complex? Nonsense.

The simple answer to "do I have fingers" is "yes." But where to my fingers start and the rest of my hand end? You can complicate anything by drowning yourself in arbitrary details. But that doesn't mean that there are no simple answers. Only that you can't see them while your drowning.

 

[keypurr]

Once a seed has separated from the tree and begins to grow on its own, is it still a seed?

Using your example, than you must think ababy becomes a person when seperated from its mother. See now what I am trying to discuss. Life does begin at consecption but is that when a PERSON starts?


I am way past the age where my wife and I think about having an abortion or use birth control, so I do not have a personel stake in these things. But I don wonder how people can paint such a simple picture of life and be so involved that they shoot thoes who disagree.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Originally posted by philosophizer
The simple answer to "do I have fingers" is "yes." But where to my fingers start and the rest of my hand end? You can complicate anything by drowning yourself in arbitrary details. But that doesn't mean that there are no simple answers. Only that you can't see them while your drowning.

Super post! :thumb:

BTW, If the child did not have the breath of God from the beginning, then it's cells would be anarobic(sp?), and there are cells in the body like that. They are called cancer cells. They die in the presence of the breath of God. Seriously. They can't take a normal amount of oxygen.

 

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by keypurr

Using your example, than you must think ababy becomes a person when seperated from its mother. See now what I am trying to discuss. Life does begin at consecption but is that when a PERSON starts?

:doh: Look. This discussion is only now getting complicated because we are staying too strict to an analogy between humans and trees, which have obvious differences in their reproductive processes. Let's not confuse ourselves needlessly. Let's compare these two processes in a reasonable fashion.

When a tree ends up with a fertilized seed, the seed drops off the tree, plants itself in the ground, and begins to grow. It grows a root system down into the ground to attain nutrients and water for further growth. Then it begins to sprout above the soil and grow upwards.

At what point can it be called a tree? Who cares? We have terms like seed, seedling, and sapling to describe different stages. But are those stages real? No, they're just descriptions for arbitrary parts of a process. Who cares when it "becomes" any of those things? Is it anything other than Oak, Elm, or Maple the whole time?


In Human reproduction, the sperm and egg meet and fertilize. The zygote implants and begin to grow. There are developmental terms like zygote, embryo, and fetus. But those are just words that describe parts of a process. They are arbitrary. Who cares when it "becomes a person"? Person is just a word too. Who cares when it has never been anything other than a growing human being?


You see? It only gets complicated if you want it to be. It's only when you tie yourself up in tons of arbitrary details that you become unsure of whether or not a growing unborn baby is a human being.

I am way past the age where my wife and I think about having an abortion or use birth control, so I do not have a personel stake in these things. But I don wonder how people can paint such a simple picture of life and be so involved that they shoot thoes who disagree.

Yup. Murder is wrong.

 

[Sozo]

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Originally posted by philosophizer

God gave us brains to think and to act and to take responsibility for ourselves within the context of relying on His provision.

Sorry, but I really hate that way of "thinking".

God gave us brains to respond in total dependency upon Him through the Spirit, not to make independent choices based on our circumstances, emotions, personalities, etc. "Responsibilty" is just that, it is us responding to His ability. We should never be initiators, but always responders. This is what true faith is, it is a responder to who God is and what He says. Faith is not an initiator. Birth control is an initiation on our part to go against what God has already initiated by natural means. It is an independent decision, based on leaning on one's own understanding, and contrary to what God has already said.

 

[Sozo]

About my previous post, phil, please don't take it as a personal attack, it is not. I just believe that in all things God must know better, than we could ever hope to comprehend, how we should respond. Even if it is His will that an individual should not have children, it must be the result of a decision on our part through utmost humilty, fervent prayer, and the fear of the Lord, and not because of how we see and reason through it.

 

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by Sozo

About my previous post, phil, please don't take it as a personal attack

Don't worry. I don't.

 

[keypurr]

Sozo, sometimes you make a lot of sense, this is one of them.
God Bless

 

[firechyld]

Oh, come on.... male birth control pill? Anyone?

I was really looking forward to hearing your collective points of view on this one.

 

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by firechyld

Oh, come on.... male birth control pill? Anyone?

I was really looking forward to hearing your collective points of view on this one.

I've heard about that, but I haven't heard a lot about how it would work. It seems like it would be a lot harder to prevent sperm formation or release than to prevent ovulation. You'd be dealing with millions of cells instead of just one. So, I guess I'd have to look into it a little more to give my opinion. But if the science methodology was sound and unharmful, I would have no problem with it.

Do you have any links or info?

 

[keypurr]

I think birth control is a private matter and since a life is not involved it should not be judged by us who only have a limited understanding anyway.

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by firechyld

Oh, come on.... male birth control pill? Anyone?

I was really looking forward to hearing your collective points of view on this one.

I don't know. The mechanism of spermatogenesis is so complex! The hormonal positive feedback loop that drives it is harder to interupt than ovulation. Philo is right, in that a single ovulation is nothing compared to the billions of sperm in a man. And, we make them and can release them whenever. Womens eggs are virtually set at birth, but men just keep on going.

If it can be done, it is much less likely to cause some kind of abortive problems. However, I would be curious to see the impact of delayed production of sperm on its genetic viability. I will look up some of the new developments and check back.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by keypurr

I think birth control is a private matter and since a life is not involved it should not be judged by us who only have a limited understanding anyway.

What about wehn a life is involved? Most birth control pills, if not all of them, are designed to detach an already fertilized egg from the womb wall. That is the interruption of a life. An innocent one, at that. That is wrong!

 

[keypurr]

What about wehn a life is involved? Most birth control pills, if not all of them, are designed to detach an already fertilized egg from the womb wall. That is the interruption of a life. An innocent one, at that. That is wrong!

How would one know if there is a fertilized egg waiting? You cannot assume that there is one there everytime you wnat to make love. Birth control is a lot better than abortion.

 

[Turbo]

keypurr, some forms of birth control can cause abortions.

lighthouse is referring to some birth control products (such as the pill, the rod, and the patch) that are designed to prevent ovulation, but sometimes fail. And when they do and an egg is fertilized, these products prevent the fertilized egg from implanting in the womb. (IUDs also cause abortions.)

If this is news to you, I recommend reading Birth Control v. Pro-Life and the links provided in that thread.

Sadly, most people do not know that these products sometimes act as abortifacients. But from time to time we bring it up here on TOL. Last year, tdkay and his wife ceased using "the rod" upon learning about this risk. If you read this thread, you saw that Lovejoy's wife stopped using "the patch" based on what he learned here. And I pray that if you have been using any of these products, that you will research the risks and cease using them.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by firechyld

Oh, come on.... male birth control pill? Anyone?

I was really looking forward to hearing your collective points of view on this one.

I heard about that. You put it in his shoe.