Should Children Be Executed If They've...

Kit the Coyote

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You may want to check out the following chart then. The U.S. Supreme Court had reinstituted the death penalty in July of 1976 after having struck down all state death penalty statutes almost exactly four years earlier. During those four years without the death penalty there were about 12,000 more murders as compared to the four years prior to 1972, an increase of 19 percent, and more than 10,000 additional families who had raised a child who then became a murderer.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

INteresting but if you look at the whole chart it is hardly conclusive as this change seems to be in the range of variation both before and after. Then in the 90's we see murder rates trending down even as few and fewer states are enforcing their death penalty laws.
 

genuineoriginal

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Well, There's Your Problem:
4509.png
 

Kit the Coyote

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Well, There's Your Problem:
4509.png
So from 1985, the length of time between sentencing and execution has steadily gone up, and according to the chart JW have provided the murder rate spiked in the 90s but since overall the murder rate has been steady or gone down. :think:

This really doesn't help your position. If anything this is saying that increasing the time between sentencing and execution is LOWERING murder rates.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
As long as it is possible, no matter how unlikely, that an innocent could be executed before they can prove their innocence there is no preventative factor that the DP could provide...

how about a guarantee that a convicted murderer will never murder again?

... that cannot be equally provided by life without parole.

the family of Joseph Gomm would disagree with you: http://www.startribune.com/stillwater-inmate-kills-corrections-officer/488544421/
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
I will happily support your idea of a legal system when you can demonstrate a 100% guarantee that the innocent will be protected.

on the one hand, you have the vanishingly small number of unjustly convicted prisoners

on the other hand, you have the general population


you want to protect the former and put at risk the latter
 

Kit the Coyote

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how about a guarantee that a convicted murderer will never murder again?

the family of Joseph Gomm would disagree with you:

There are always exceptions. I could point out that a prisoner could kill a guard before his execution no matter how fast you implement it. And still, the murder is not released back in the public and even with these occasional prison deaths, it will still be fewer innocents killed.
 

JudgeRightly

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You can imagine anything, but there's really no reason to believe that.

There's no reason to think that that wouldn't have happened had we done so.

What we know is that we execute innocent people. We don't have to do that.

We also know that we [knowingly] acquit guilty people. We don't have to do that, and yet it's such a common occurrence, it's a wonder we don't have more crime than we already do, not that we don't already have a crime epidemic in our country...
 

JudgeRightly

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INteresting but if you look at the whole chart it is hardly conclusive as this change seems to be in the range of variation both before and after. Then in the 90's we see murder rates trending down even as few and fewer states are enforcing their death penalty laws.

Not entirely sure about this, but wasn't there an increase in the number of people being imprisoned in the 90s for crimes?

If so, wouldn't that also account for the number of crimes being reduced? I mean, if you lock up all the criminals, there's gonna be a reduction in crime just because there's no one to commit the crimes.

But it's not a permanent solution, only a stop-gap measure, which breaks as soon as those criminals start being released from prison due to various reasons.
 

Kit the Coyote

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Not entirely sure about this, but wasn't there an increase in the number of people being imprisoned in the 90s for crimes?

If so, wouldn't that also account for the number of crimes being reduced? I mean, if you lock up all the criminals, there's gonna be a reduction in crime just because there's no one to commit the crimes.

But it's not a permanent solution, only a stop-gap measure, which breaks as soon as those criminals start being released from prison due to various reasons.

Since the proposed alternative is life without parole, the prisoners who would be executed are not going to be released from prison. The rest of the prison population that are not death penalty prisoners would not change between the situations being discussed so whatever happens to them is going to be the same.
 

JudgeRightly

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Since the proposed alternative is life without parole, the prisoners who would be executed are not going to be released from prison. The rest of the prison population that are not death penalty prisoners would not change between the situations being discussed so whatever happens to them is going to be the same.

Unfortunately, even "lifers" aren't 100% guaranteed to die in prison.

https://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2018/02/17_louisiana_prison_lifers_hav.html

Oh, and don't forget that if a "lifer" is still alive, he still has the opportunity to break out of prison.

The alternative, execution immediately after conviction, has no possibility of the criminal breaking out, because the prison he would be in isn't made by man, but by God.
 

Arthur Brain

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There's no reason to think that that wouldn't have happened had we done so.



We also know that we [knowingly] acquit guilty people. We don't have to do that, and yet it's such a common occurrence, it's a wonder we don't have more crime than we already do, not that we don't already have a crime epidemic in our country...

What do you mean by "knowingly acquit" guilty people and it being a "common occurrence"? You're full of hyperbole and yet offer little besides opinion for support. Under your "system" innocent people would undoubtedly go to their deaths because your litmus for establishing guilt is less stringent than what the law requires now.
 

Kit the Coyote

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Unfortunately, even "lifers" aren't 100% guaranteed to die in prison.

Oh, and don't forget that if a "lifer" is still alive, he still has the opportunity to break out of prison.

The alternative, execution immediately after conviction, has no possibility of the criminal breaking out, because the prison he would be in isn't made by man, but by God.
No system is perfect and it is the imperfections we are discussing. We have a good idea how many falsely convicted innocents are caught up in death penalty cases and we have a good idea of how many lifers kill again and I think you will find the latter is a smaller number.
 

Town Heretic

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There's no reason to think that that wouldn't have happened had we done so.
So your standard reduces to believing a thing because no one has proven that what didn't happen couldn't be true? :plain:

We also know that we [knowingly] acquit guilty people.
I feel confident that we have acquitted guilty people. Many people think OJ was guilty, by way of example. I'm sure it happens, though there's no empirical study that I know of suggesting it as more than an aberration.

We don't have to do that, and yet it's such a common occurrence,
Do you have any empirical, objective, peer reviewed study in support of the idea of a common occurrence?

it's a wonder we don't have more crime than we already do
Which would be a curious way of saying your inclination doesn't appear to be sustained by larger observation, which makes sense.

not that we don't already have a crime epidemic in our country...
What's the standard for equating crime in a free society with an epidemic?

Merriam-Webster has it that epidemics are defined as "excessively prevalent" occurrences "characterized by a widespread growth..."

Crime rates have largely fallen with the aging of the Baby Boomers. You might well suggest something like an epidemic of violent crime a few decades ago, when drug fueled violence within the Baby Boomer population took the nation to an average of double digit homicides per 100k. At present, despite an increase in mass violence, the overall rate is approximating the rate prior to that period of uncommon violence.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
There are always exceptions. I could point out that a prisoner could kill a guard before his execution no matter how fast you implement it. And still, the murder is not released back in the public and even with these occasional prison deaths, it will still be fewer innocents killed.



why is it preferable to you that a wrongly convicted prisoner be incarcerated for life in the hell of prison instead of being executed?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Are you advocating executing innocents?

yes

all of them :p


no, just wondering why those who are against the death penalty think that life in prison is preferable to a swift execution, or that the time and experiences lost while incarcerated are somehow ameliorated by the release of a wrongly convicted prisoner
 

Kit the Coyote

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why is it preferable to you that a wrongly convicted prisoner be incarcerated for life in the hell of prison instead of being executed?

Because at least there is the possibility of correcting the issue. Why is it preferable for you to kill a person who does not deserve death?
 
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