ECT Rome: Mary, Together With Christ, Redeemed the Human Race

[1Way1Truth1Life]

Since the redemption price is not applied to the unbelievers then common sense dictates that they were never bought. Therefore, the reference to being "bought" here does not refer to being redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus:

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM" (2 Peter 2.1).​

Being "bought" at 2 Peter refers to the redemption of the Jews out of bondage in Egypt. That is what is referred to here:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people" (Lk.1:68).​

That is the same exact redemption spoken of here:

"But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Deut.7:8).​

And it is in that way that the Jews are referred to as being "bought":

"Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee" (Deut.32:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Robert Jamieson writes:

"is not he thy father that hath bought thee--or emancipated thee from Egyptian bondage" (Jamieson, Fausset & Brown).​

The reference at 2 Peter 2:1 is in regard to being "bought" is about the nation of Israel being redeemed out of Egypt.

Nope the verse says so clearly a 9 year old can understand that it is not refering to the nation of Israel as you are saying.
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).

And God still says he bought/redeemed them. So clearly a 9 year old understands what God is saying.

Not applied as in the sense of not accepting the gift by unbelief. Very clearly God says he bought/redeemed them but they do not accept the gift. Thus not applied to their account to take away their sins while they stay in unbelief.

It's not complicated.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Only in the way that the redemption price has been paid for all. This does not mean that it is applied since they are in unbelief, not living in faith.

Since the redemption price is not applied to the unbelievers then common sense dictates that they were never bought. Therefore, the reference to being "bought" here does not refer to being redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus:

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM" (2 Peter 2.1).​

Being "bought" at 2 Peter refers to the redemption of the Jews out of bondage in Egypt. That is what is referred to here:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people" (Lk.1:68).​

That is the same exact redemption spoken of here:

"But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Deut.7:8).​

And it is in that way that the Jews are referred to as being "bought":

"Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee" (Deut.32:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Robert Jamieson writes:

"is not he thy father that hath bought thee--or emancipated thee from Egyptian bondage" (Jamieson, Fausset & Brown).​

The reference at 2 Peter 2:1 is in regard to being "bought" is about the nation of Israel being redeemed out of Egypt.

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

Since the redemption price is not applied to the unbelievers then common sense dictates that they were never bought. Therefore, the reference to being "bought" here does not refer to being redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus:

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM" (2 Peter 2.1).​

Being "bought" at 2 Peter refers to the redemption of the Jews out of bondage in Egypt. That is what is referred to here:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people" (Lk.1:68).​

That is the same exact redemption spoken of here:

"But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Deut.7:8).​

And it is in that way that the Jews are referred to as being "bought":

"Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee" (Deut.32:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Robert Jamieson writes:

"is not he thy father that hath bought thee--or emancipated thee from Egyptian bondage" (Jamieson, Fausset & Brown).​

The reference at 2 Peter 2:1 is in regard to being "bought" is about the nation of Israel being redeemed out of Egypt.

Nope the verse says so clearly a 9 year old can understand that it is not refering to the nation of Israel as you are saying.
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).

And God still says he bought/redeemed them. So clearly a 9 year old understands what God is saying.

Not applied as in the sense of not accepting the gift by unbelief. Very clearly God says he bought/redeemed them but they do not accept the gift. Thus not applied to their account to take away their sins while they stay in unbelief.

So simple a child understands it. As Jesus says do not forbid the children to come to Him. He is not going to make it complicated so that a child would be kept from coming to Him.

 

[republicanchick]

The things which Rome teaches about Mary are contradicted by what Peter said here:

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12).​

According to Peter there is salvation in no one else other than Jesus Christ of Nazareth. But Rome says that salvation comes through Mary:

"And likewise in our own day, Mary, with the ever merciful affection so characteristic of her maternal heart, wishes, through her efficacious intercession with God, to deliver her children from the sad and grief-laden troubles, from the tribulations, the anxiety, the difficulties, and the punishments of God's anger which afflict the world because of the sins of men. Wishing to restrain and to dispel the violent hurricane of evils which, as We lament from the bottom of Our heart, are everywhere afflicting the Church, Mary desires to transform Our sadness into joy. The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary" (UBI PRIMUM, Encyclical of Pope Pius IX, February 2, 1849).​

Peter says that there is salvation in no one other than the Lord Jesus but Rome says that we obtain all salvation through Mary.

Therre is absolutely NO contradiction here, though u Protestants continue to see contradiction where it does not exist.. I understand.. you have to re-invent the wheel b/c you do not know that it has already been invented (meaning you don't know that Jesus really did establish an eternal Church that cannot be destroyed by humans [Mt 16:18])

Jesus comes to us through Mary. Protestants believe she gave birth to Him.. so.. why do they deny that He comes to us through her??


doesn't make sens

+++

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus comes to us through Mary. Protestants believe she gave birth to Him.. so.. why do they deny that He comes to us through her??

doesn't make sense

Protestants do not deny that the Lord Jesus became flesh when He was born of Mary. But Protestants know that what Rome says about Mary here is not true:

"And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race." ​

It is ridiculous to say that Mary sacrificed the Lord Jesus the best she could. She had absolutely nothing to do with sacrificing Him.

And it is blasphemy to say that she, together with Christ, have redeemed the human race.

Those who have been brainwashed into the Marian cult will believe anything Rome tells them about Mary, no matter how ridiculous.

 

[DAN P]

Therre is absolutely NO contradiction here, though u Protestants continue to see contradiction where it does not exist.. I understand.. you have to re-invent the wheel b/c you do not know that it has already been invented (meaning you don't know that Jesus really did establish an eternal Church that cannot be destroyed by humans [Mt 16:18])

Jesus comes to us through Mary. Protestants believe she gave birth to Him.. so.. why do they deny that He comes to us through her??


doesn't make sens

+++

Hi and Mary is not in heaven as Gal 3:28 says that in the Body of Christ ,there is NEITHER Male nor FEMALE in the Body !!

So , where is Mary today with a verse !!:rotfl::rotfl:

dan p

 

[DAN P]

Therre is absolutely NO contradiction here, though u Protestants continue to see contradiction where it does not exist.. I understand.. you have to re-invent the wheel b/c you do not know that it has already been invented (meaning you don't know that Jesus really did establish an eternal Church that cannot be destroyed by humans [Mt 16:18])

Jesus comes to us through Mary. Protestants believe she gave birth to Him.. so.. why do they deny that He comes to us through her??


doesn't make sens

+++

Hi , first you have a wrong definition for EKKLESIA which means Assembly and Christ is seating at the right hand of God , WHY is Mary not seated in heaven where Mary is EXCLUDED by John 3:13 and where Gal 3:28 says that there are no FEMALES in the Body , and where is there a verse which says that Mary is in the Body ??:rotfl::rotfl:

dan p

 

[Sealeaf]

Hi , first you have a wrong definition for EKKLESIA which means Assembly and Christ is seating at the right hand of God , WHY is Mary not seated in heaven where Mary is EXCLUDED by John 3:13 and where Gal 3:28 says that there are no FEMALES in the Body , and where is there a verse which says that Mary is in the Body ??:rotfl::rotfl:

dan p

The same verse that says there are no Females also says there are no Males in the body either. Sounds like the Body is a null set. A classification with no members.
Or maybe it just means no heterosexuals? Only Gays and lesbians can be members of the body of Christ?

 

[oatmeal]

Here is what Rome teaches about Mary:

"As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race" (The Church Teaches, Documents of the Church in English Translation, by the Jesuit fathers of St. Mary's College, copyright 1973 Tan Books and Publishers Inc., bearing the IMPRIMI POTEST, NIHIL OBSTAT, AND IMPRIMATUR of the Catholic Church, pages 210-211).​

First of all, the redemption provided by the Lord Jesus was by His death:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

Since Mary was still alive at the time when the Lord Jesus died on the Cross to redeem those who believe it is obvious that she played no part in anyone's redemption.

Secondly, the whole human race was not redeemed. There is a universal reconciliation but not a universal redemption.

The price was paid for all. But not all choose to receive what God has made available by the works of His dear son.

Only those who do Romans 10:9-10 receive redemption. Then of course, we need to learn to apply and live it in our lives.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

I John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Cruciform]

First of all, the redemption provided by the Lord Jesus was by His death... Since Mary was still alive at the time when the Lord Jesus died on the Cross to redeem those who believe it is obvious that she played no part in anyone's redemption.

Your error here is in assuming (wrongly) that Mary is said to have "redeemed" humanity in the same sense as Jesus Christ, which is simply not the case. Thus, your objection rests entirely upon a false assumption on your part.

End of thread.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The price was paid for all. But not all choose to receive what God has made available by the works of His dear son.

Only those who do Romans 10:9-10 receive redemption. Then of course, we need to learn to apply and live it in our lives.

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

I John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Redemption not only refers to paying the price but also taking possession of those paid for:

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Cor.6:19-20).​

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity" (2 Tim.2:19).

Not every person belongs to the Lord so mankind has not been redeemed. Only those who believe.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your error here is in assuming (wrongly) that Mary is said to have "redeemed" humanity in the same sense as Jesus Christ, which is simply not the case. Thus, your objection rests entirely upon a false assumption on your part.

Redemption is by blood:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

There is no other way that those who are dead in sin can be redeemed. And Mary had nothing to do in regard to redeeming anyone.

 

[Cruciform]

Redemption is by blood... There is no other way that those who are dead in sin can be redeemed. And Mary had nothing to do in regard to redeeming anyone.

Thus, you merely prove my point from Post #50 above.

Genuinely interested and honest readers see this and this.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[drbrumley]

Thus, you merely prove my point from Post #50 above.

Genuinely interested and honest readers see this and this.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Answered in scripture 2000 years ago

 

[Cruciform]

Answered in scripture 2000 years ago

Where, exactly? Chapter-and-verse, please.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thus, you merely prove my point from Post #50 above.

Genuinely interested and honest readers see this and this.

On the first site we read:

"By bringing Christ into the world, raising Him from infancy, and offering Him up to the Father at the foot of the cross, Mary participates uniquely in Christ’s salvation of the world, on account of which the Church titles her ‘Co-Redemptrix.’"​

None of that speaks of redemption. Evidently Rome doesn't even know what redemption is.

A price must be paid in order to redeem anything. And Mary paid no price to set anyone free.

 

[User Name]

And Mary paid no price to set anyone free.

If Paul could do it (Colossians 1:24), then why not Mary (Luke 2:35)?

MAD: Paul, Together With Christ, Redeemed the Human Race

 

[Cruciform]

A price must be paid in order to redeem anything. And Mary paid no price to set anyone free.

Already sufficiently answered (Posts #50 and #53).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Already sufficiently answered (Posts #50 and #53).

No, not sufficiently answered:

"Crucified spiritually with her crucified Son (cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she “lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth” (LG 58) … as she was in a special way close to the Cross of her Son, she also had to have a privileged experience of his Resurrection. In fact, Mary’s role as co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son."

Where in the Bible do we find that she “lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If Paul could do it (Colossians 1:24), then why not Mary (Luke 2:35)?

The quote of Paul says nothing about redemption. Nowhere does Paul ever say, "Together with Christ we redeemed mankind."