ECT Rome: Mary, Together With Christ, Redeemed the Human Race

[1Way1Truth1Life]

Since the redemption price is not applied to the unbelievers then common sense dictates that they were never bought. Therefore, the reference to being "bought" here does not refer to being redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus:

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM" (2 Peter 2.1).​

Just because someone or something is bought and paid for does not mean the gift is recieved. God says they were bought. They were bought. This scripture unabashedly, succinctly and clearly denounces and trounces limited atonement as being completely false and not from God. God shows Jesus bought everyone and as He says, for God so loved the world that whosoever shall believe on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Praise God!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Just because someone or something is bought and paid for does not mean the gift is recieved. God says they were bought. They were bought. This scripture unabashedly, succinctly and clearly denounces and trounces limited atonement as being completely false and not from God. God shows Jesus bought everyone and as He says, for God so loved the world that whosoever shall believe on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Praise God!

Since the redemption price is not applied to unbelievers it is obvious that they are never bought. The price must be met before a transaction takes place and anything is bought.

I have already shown you in what way the people spoken of at 2 Peter 2:1 were "bought" and you said nothing that proves that I am wrong. This verse speaks of the Father "buying" the Jews:

"Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee" (Deut.32:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Robert Jamieson writes:

"is not he thy father that hath bought thee--or emancipated thee from Egyptian bondage" (Jamieson, Fausset & Brown).​

The reference at 2 Peter 2:1 is in regard to being "bought" is about the nation of Israel being redeemed out of Egypt.

 

[republicanchick]

Here is what Rome teaches about Mary:

"As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race" (The Church Teaches, Documents of the Church in English Translation, by the Jesuit fathers of St. Mary's College, copyright 1973 Tan Books and Publishers Inc., bearing the IMPRIMI POTEST, NIHIL OBSTAT, AND IMPRIMATUR of the Catholic Church, pages 210-211).​

First of all, the redemption provided by the Lord Jesus was by His death:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

Since Mary was still alive at the time when the Lord Jesus died on the Cross to redeem those who believe it is obvious that she played no part in anyone's redemption.

Secondly, the whole human race was not redeemed. There is a universal reconciliation but not a universal redemption.

that thing u quoted by the Catholic Church was so beautiful it almost brought tears to my eyes.. and I know from experience that it is true, that Mary helps to save us.

that does not take away from Jesus being our savior.

Nothing can take away from Jesus being our Savior, the one who forgives sins. Mary does not forgive sins..

You have a very small Jesus if He can be taken away from you by your thinking about Mary... talking to her, etc...

+++

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

Since the redemption price is not applied to unbelievers it is obvious that they are never bought. The price must be met before a transaction takes place and anything is bought.

I have already shown you in what way the people spoken of at 2 Peter 2:1 were "bought" and you said nothing that proves that I am wrong. This verse speaks of the Father "buying" the Jews:

"Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee" (Deut.32:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Robert Jamieson writes:

"is not he thy father that hath bought thee--or emancipated thee from Egyptian bondage" (Jamieson, Fausset & Brown).​

The reference at 2 Peter 2:1 is in regard to being "bought" is about the nation of Israel being redeemed out of Egypt.

God says He bought the unbelievers and false teachers and such and quite plainly shows in the scripture that what you are saying is very very incorrect. It's as plain as the nose on my face. Jesus paid the redemption price for every single person. He bought them. But just cause someone bought me a gift doesn't mean I have to accept it and take possession of it. Nor believe it. This is so simple a 9 year old can understand it. That's how simple God is explaining this in this passage.

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God says He bought the unbelievers and false teachers and such and quite plainly shows in the scripture that what you are saying is very very incorrect.

Where does God say that?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

that thing u quoted by the Catholic Church was so beautiful it almost brought tears to my eyes.. and I know from experience that it is true, that Mary helps to save us.

The things which Rome teaches about Mary are contradicted by what Peter said here:

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12).​

According to Peter there is salvation in no one else other than Jesus Christ of Nazareth. But Rome says that salvation comes through Mary:

"And likewise in our own day, Mary, with the ever merciful affection so characteristic of her maternal heart, wishes, through her efficacious intercession with God, to deliver her children from the sad and grief-laden troubles, from the tribulations, the anxiety, the difficulties, and the punishments of God's anger which afflict the world because of the sins of men. Wishing to restrain and to dispel the violent hurricane of evils which, as We lament from the bottom of Our heart, are everywhere afflicting the Church, Mary desires to transform Our sadness into joy. The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary" (UBI PRIMUM, Encyclical of Pope Pius IX, February 2, 1849).​

Peter says that there is salvation in no one other than the Lord Jesus but Rome says that we obtain all salvation through Mary.

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

Where does God say that?

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).

So simply even my 9 year old understands it with no promptings or background. "Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Mk 10:15

 

[Bright Raven]

Mary had nothing to do with it.

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

The things which Rome teaches about Mary are contradicted by what Peter said here:

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12).​

According to Peter there is salvation in no one else other than Jesus Christ of Nazareth. But Rome says that salvation comes through Mary:

"And likewise in our own day, Mary, with the ever merciful affection so characteristic of her maternal heart, wishes, through her efficacious intercession with God, to deliver her children from the sad and grief-laden troubles, from the tribulations, the anxiety, the difficulties, and the punishments of God's anger which afflict the world because of the sins of men. Wishing to restrain and to dispel the violent hurricane of evils which, as We lament from the bottom of Our heart, are everywhere afflicting the Church, Mary desires to transform Our sadness into joy. The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary" (UBI PRIMUM, Encyclical of Pope Pius IX, February 2, 1849).​

Peter says that there is salvation in no one other than the Lord Jesus but Rome says that we obtain all salvation through Mary.

Spot on. :dog:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So simply even my 9 year old understands it with no promptings or background. "Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Mk 10:15

You yourself said that the redemption price is not applied to unbelievers:

Only in the way that the redemption price has been paid for all. This does not mean that it is applied since they are in unbelief, not living in faith.

One of the meanings of the word "apply" is "to put to use for some purpose."

If the redemption price is not put to use for redeeming a person then that person is NOT BOUGHT and he remains unredeemed.

Here we read that believers are bought with a price:

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Cor.6:20).​

By your own words the redemption price is not applied or paid to unbelievers so they are not bought with that price.

Simple as can be!

 

[Sealeaf]

Mary had nothing to do with it.

Jesus is the redeemer. True. He would be the redeemer no matter who His mother was. Also true. But His Mother was a specific woman, Mary. Her part is not meaningless. She most certainly had something to do with it. Jesus is able to redeem us because He is both God and human. He is conceived by the Holy Spirit. He has no mortal father. All of His humanity He owes to Mary. She agreed to be the mother of the Savior. We have no idea how many nice Jewish girls were asked and said, "No thanks." We only know that Mary said yes.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus is the redeemer. True. He would be the redeemer no matter who His mother was. Also true. But His Mother was a specific woman, Mary. Her part is not meaningless. She most certainly had something to do with it. Jesus is able to redeem us because He is both God and human. He is conceived by the Holy Spirit. He has no mortal father. All of His humanity He owes to Mary. She agreed to be the mother of the Savior. We have no idea how many nice Jewish girls were asked and said, "No thanks." We only know that Mary said yes.

Here is what Rome said about Mary:

"And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race." ​

It is ridiculous to say that Mary sacrificed the Lord Jesus the best she could. She had absolutely nothing to do with sacrificing Him.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus is the redeemer. True. He would be the redeemer no matter who His mother was. Also true. But His Mother was a specific woman, Mary. Her part is not meaningless. She most certainly had something to do with it. Jesus is able to redeem us because He is both God and human. He is conceived by the Holy Spirit. He has no mortal father. All of His humanity He owes to Mary. She agreed to be the mother of the Savior. We have no idea how many nice Jewish girls were asked and said, "No thanks." We only know that Mary said yes.

Isn't shear idiotic human speculation fun?

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

You yourself said that the redemption price is not applied to unbelievers:



One of the meanings of the word "apply" is "to put to use for some purpose."

If the redemption price is not put to use for redeeming a person then that person is NOT BOUGHT and he remains unredeemed.

Here we read that believers are bought with a price:

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Cor.6:20).​

By your own words the redemption price is not applied or paid to unbelievers so they are not bought with that price.

Simple as can be!

God says He bought even the unbelievers and false teachers and such. God says this.
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).

Not being applied is akin to not receiving a gift. Which all of this God equates it to being.
The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:23
And let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. Rev 22:17
Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink," Jn 4:10

A gift can be rejected and not received, not applied, even though it is bought and paid for like the redemption Jesus bought for all can be rejected and not recieved and thus not applied.

"Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Mk 10:15

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not being applied is akin to not receiving a gift.

You just IGNORED the points which I made. You understand nothing about redemption.

You yourself admit that the redemption price is not applied to unbelievers.

And even though that redemption price is not paid for unbelievers you insist that they are bought!

Before you continue on this thread you need to realize that the price must be paid before something can be bought!

Now tell me how the redemption price can buy unbelievers if that redemption price is not applied (paid).

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

You just IGNORED the points which I made. You understand nothing about redemption.

You yourself admit that the redemption price is not applied to unbelievers.

And even though that redemption price is not paid for unbelievers you insist that they are bought!

Before you continue on this thread you need to realize that the price must be paid before something can be bought!

Now tell me how the redemption price can buy unbelievers if that redemption price is not applied (paid).

Full Definition of APPLIED

1
: *put to practical use <applied art>; especially : *applying general principles to solve definite problems <applied sciences>

Full Definition of PAID

1
: *marked by the receipt of pay <paid vacation time>
2
: *being or having been paid or paid for <a paid official> <a paid political announcement>

Definition of BOUGHT

past and past participle of buy

Full Definition of BUY

transitive verb
1
: *to acquire possession, ownership, or rights to the use or services of by payment especially of money : *purchase
2
a : *to obtain in exchange for something often at a sacrifice <they bought peace with their freedom>
b : *redeem 6

Jesus bought/redeemed unbelievers, false teachers as He paid the price although it is not applied while they deny the one who bought/redeemed them as it is a gift and gifts can be bought/redeemed yet never recieved and applied. I have ignored nothing. Words have specific meanings varied for each word.

God says He bought/redeemed them.
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).

Not being applied is akin to not receiving a gift. Which all of this God equates it to being.
The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:23
And let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. Rev 22:17
Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink," Jn 4:10

A gift can be rejected and not received, not applied, even though it is bought and paid for like the redemption Jesus bought for all can be rejected and not recieved and thus not applied.

"Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Mk 10:15

 

[User Name]

Paul wrote to Philemon that "you owe me your very self" (Philemon 1:19).

You completely misunderstand that scripture.

What is your understanding of it?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Full Definition of BUY

transitive verb
1
: *to acquire possession, ownership, or rights to the use or services of by payment especially of money : *purchase

You yourself said that the redemption price was not applied to unbelievers. Since the price was not applied to them then it is obvious that the price was not paid for them.

And since the price was not paid for them they were not bought.

You are blind to the fact that in order to by something you must pay the price for that thing.

And even though you admit that the redemption price for them was not applied to unbelievers you still insist that they were bought.

I will waste no more time with you on this subject since you have tricked your mind into believing that even though the redemption price was not paid for unbelievers they were bought anyway!

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

You yourself said that the redemption price was not applied to unbelievers. Since the price was not applied to them then it is obvious that the price was not paid for them.

And since the price was not paid for them they were not bought.

You are blind to the fact that in order to by something you must pay the price for that thing.

And even though you admit that the redemption price for them was not applied to unbelievers you still insist that they were bought.

I will waste no more time with you on this subject since you have tricked your mind into believing that even though the redemption price was not paid for unbelievers they were bought anyway!

Full Definition of APPLIED

1
: *put to practical use <applied art>; especially : *applying general principles to solve definite problems <applied sciences>

Full Definition of PAID

1
: *marked by the receipt of pay <paid vacation time>
2
: *being or having been paid or paid for <a paid official> <a paid political announcement>

Definition of BOUGHT

past and past participle of buy

Full Definition of BUY

transitive verb
1
: *to acquire possession, ownership, or rights to the use or services of by payment especially of money : *purchase
2
a : *to obtain in exchange for something often at a sacrifice <they bought peace with their freedom>
b : *redeem 6

Jesus bought/redeemed unbelievers, false teachers as He paid the price although it is not applied while they deny the one who bought/redeemed them as it is a gift and gifts can be bought/redeemed yet never recieved and applied. I have ignored nothing. Words have specific meanings varied for each word.

God says He bought/redeemed them.
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).

Not being applied is akin to not receiving a gift. Which all of this God equates it to being.
The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:23
And let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life. Rev 22:17
Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink," Jn 4:10

A gift can be rejected and not received, not applied, even though it is bought and paid for like the redemption Jesus bought for all can be rejected and not recieved and thus not applied.

"Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Mk 10:15

God says He bought them. You say He didn't. Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Only in the way that the redemption price has been paid for all. This does not mean that it is applied since they are in unbelief, not living in faith.

Since the redemption price is not applied to the unbelievers then common sense dictates that they were never bought. Therefore, the reference to being "bought" here does not refer to being redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus:

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM" (2 Peter 2.1).​

Being "bought" at 2 Peter refers to the redemption of the Jews out of bondage in Egypt. That is what is referred to here:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people" (Lk.1:68).​

That is the same exact redemption spoken of here:

"But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Deut.7:8).​

And it is in that way that the Jews are referred to as being "bought":

"Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee" (Deut.32:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Robert Jamieson writes:

"is not he thy father that hath bought thee--or emancipated thee from Egyptian bondage" (Jamieson, Fausset & Brown).​

The reference at 2 Peter 2:1 is in regard to being "bought" is about the nation of Israel being redeemed out of Egypt.