ECT Rome: Mary, Together With Christ, Redeemed the Human Race

[Jerry Shugart]

Here is what Rome teaches about Mary:

"As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race" (The Church Teaches, Documents of the Church in English Translation, by the Jesuit fathers of St. Mary's College, copyright 1973 Tan Books and Publishers Inc., bearing the IMPRIMI POTEST, NIHIL OBSTAT, AND IMPRIMATUR of the Catholic Church, pages 210-211).​

First of all, the redemption provided by the Lord Jesus was by His death:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).​

Since Mary was still alive at the time when the Lord Jesus died on the Cross to redeem those who believe it is obvious that she played no part in anyone's redemption.

Secondly, the whole human race was not redeemed. There is a universal reconciliation but not a universal redemption.

 

[Cross Reference]

Secondly, the whole human race was not redeemed. There is a universal reconciliation but not a universal redemption.

Which could not have become a reality without a universal redemption.

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

Jesus paid the redemption price for everyone, even those that don't believe and are doomed for destruction:
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).

 

[musterion]

Which could not have become a reality without a universal redemption.

Ah, a universalist. Figures.

 

[musterion]

Now let's see some posts about the Catholic movement that seeks to make a salvational trinity of Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus paid the redemption price for everyone, even those that don't believe and are doomed for destruction:
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).

All the Jews are spoken of as being a redeemed people:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people" (Lk.1:68).​

These words were spoken before the Cross so they are not in regard to redemption by blood.

So at 2 Peter 2:1 the people spoken of as being "bought" are Jews belonging to the nation of Israel which was redeemed by the Lord out of Egypt.
.
The Lord died on behalf of all men but he did not die in the place of all men. That means that being redeemed by His blood is not universal.

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

All the Jews are spoken of as being a redeemed people:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people" (Lk.1:68).​

These words were spoken before the Cross so they are not in regard to redemption by blood.

So at 2 Peter 2:1 the people spoken of as being "bought" are Jews belonging to the nation of Israel which was redeemed by the Lord out of Egypt.
.
The Lord died on behalf of all men but he did not die in the place of all men. That means that being redeemed by His blood is not universal.

The Scripture says precisely the opposite of what you say quite specifically.

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Scripture says precisely the opposite of what you say quite specifically.

No, that is not right and you have not proved that those referred to in the passage from 2 Peter were redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus.

Only those who are baptized into Christ are baptized into His death and it is only those who are redeemed by His blood:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Ro.6:3-4).​

Christians are redeemed by His blood by being identified with His death. And that only happens when someone is baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).​

If you are right and there is a "universal redemption" then all of mankind belongs in the Body of Christ and therefore there exists a universal salvation.

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

No, that is not right and you have not proved that those referred to in the passage from 2 Peter were redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus.

Only those who are baptized into Christ are baptized into His death and it is only those who are redeemed by His blood:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Ro.6:3-4).​

Christians are redeemed by His blood by being identified with His death. And that only happens when someone is baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).​

If you are right and there is a "universal redemption" then all of mankind belongs in the Body of Christ and therefore there exists a universal salvation.

This Scripture is quite clear and specific:
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).

Everyone has been bought by Jesus. The redemption price has been paid by Jesus for even the unsaved. Although not everyone believes, accepts and walks in faith thus appropriating the redemption. But the price has been paid for every single person for even the unsaved doomed to destruction.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Everyone has been bought by Jesus.

Prove it.

The redemption price has been paid by Jesus for even the unsaved. Although not everyone believes, accepts and walks in faith thus appropriating the redemption. But the price has been paid for every single person for even the unsaved doomed to destruction.

As I said earlier, being "bought" at 2 Peter refers to the redemption of the Jews out of bondage in Egypt. That is what is referred to here:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people" (Lk.1:68).​

That is the same exact redemption spoken of here:

"But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Deut.7:8).​

And it is in that way that the Jews are referred to as being "bought":

"Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee" (Deut.32:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Robert Jamieson writes:

"is not he thy father that hath bought thee--or emancipated thee from Egyptian bondage" (Jamieson, Fausset & Brown).​

The reference at 2 Peter 2:1 is in regard to being "bought" is about the nation of Israel being redeemed out of Egypt.

Your ideas are those cooked up by the Universalists.

 

[OCTOBER23]

JERRY , WHAT'S WITH THE SOAP OPERA OP.

"As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son,

so she surrendered her mother's rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I HAVE BEEN PUSHING THIS STUFF FOR YEARS AND NOW YOU FINALLY JUMP ON BOARD.

Boring

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

Prove it.



As I said earlier, being "bought" at 2 Peter refers to the redemption of the Jews out of bondage in Egypt. That is what is referred to here:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people" (Lk.1:68).​

That is the same exact redemption spoken of here:

"But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Deut.7:8).​

And it is in that way that the Jews are referred to as being "bought":

"Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee" (Deut.32:6).​

In his commentary on this verse Robert Jamieson writes:

"is not he thy father that hath bought thee--or emancipated thee from Egyptian bondage" (Jamieson, Fausset & Brown).​

The reference at 2 Peter 2:1 is in regard to being "bought" is about the nation of Israel being redeemed out of Egypt.

Your ideas are those cooked up by the Universalists.

As already stated this verse refutes quite plainly and specifically all you are saying:
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 2.1-3).
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever shall believe on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

It's right there. It's not hidden, obscure, but plainly and specifically spoken.

 

[User Name]

Since Mary was still alive at the time when the Lord Jesus died on the Cross to redeem those who believe it is obvious that she played no part in anyone's redemption.

Paul wrote to Philemon that "you owe me your very self" (Philemon 1:19).

 

[Right Divider]

Paul wrote to Philemon that "you owe me your very self" (Philemon 1:19).

You completely misunderstand that scripture.

 

[User Name]

You completely misunderstand that scripture.

What is your understanding of it?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It's right there. It's not hidden, obscure, but plainly and specifically spoken.

In what way are unbelievers redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus?

Are they "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9)?

Surely if unbelievers have been redeemed by His blood they have been changed in some way. In what way have they been changed?

 

[Anto9us]

this thread is "Catholic-Bashy"

 

[Jerry Shugart]

this thread is "Catholic-Bashy"

If you do not like it then you can leave it.

 

[1Way1Truth1Life]

In what way are unbelievers redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus?

Are they "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9)?

Surely if unbelievers have been redeemed by His blood they have been changed in some way. In what way have they been changed?

Only in the way that the redemption price has been paid for all. This does not mean that it is applied since they are in unbelief, not living in faith. For we are saved by grace( the unmerited favor of the redemption price being paid by Jesus on the cross) through faith( believing it and living the belief outwardly).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Only in the way that the redemption price has been paid for all. This does not mean that it is applied since they are in unbelief, not living in faith.

Since the redemption price is not applied to the unbelievers then common sense dictates that they were never bought. Therefore, the reference to being "bought" here does not refer to being redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus:

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master WHO BOUGHT THEM" (2 Peter 2.1).​