Theology Club: Repent and be Baptized...for the Remission of Sins

[Jerry Shugart]

I disagree with you.

So you do not think that this passage is saying that David's faith was counted to him for righteousness?:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered" (Ro.4:5-7).​

If that is true then why would Paul include him in his discourse which is speaking about salvation by grace apart from works?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It is about our lives, but it specifically about religion making us filthy.

Where is your evidence of that?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

So you do not think that this passage is saying that David's faith was counted to him for righteousness?:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered" (Ro.4:5-7).​

If that is true then why would Paul include him in his discourse which is speaking about salvation by grace apart from works?

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



Abraham, and by extension those in the Body.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Where is your evidence of that?

2 Cor 6
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.



The verses leading up to your quote in 2 Cor 7.

 

[Ktoyou]

You are the mess because you just IGNORED what I said. Before anyone cold be baptized with water they had to first believe, as as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

By the time when the Jew believed he was already saved:

No no, that is not what happened. Think, what happened next between Philip and the eunuch?

 

[glorydaz]

2 Cor 6
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.



The verses leading up to your quote in 2 Cor 7.

Exactly. Those are the promises.

Come out from among them and be ye separate. Abstain from all appearance of evil. As Paul states here...the very God of peace sanctify you wholly...faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

1 Thess. 5:21-24 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.​

 

[patrick jane]

So it has nothing to do with the lives we live as Christians?:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Cor.7:1).​

do you think that's possible jerre ? to cleanse OURSELVES from ALL filthiness of the flesh AND spirit ? have you done that and do it each day ? each hour ? have you PERFECTED HOLINESS in the fear of God ? did Paul say that he did it ?

or did he say - Let us ? let's - let us -

 

[Jerry Shugart]

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham, and by extension those in the Body.

How easily you just ignore what Paul said about David:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered" (Ro.4:5-7).​

Here the Greek word translated "even" is a conjunction which ties what is said at verse five to what is said in the next verse.

So Paul ties these words to David:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:5).​

So we can understand that David's faith was counted for righteousness.

But according to your ideas Paul just threw David's name in theverymiddle of the context of his discourse even though David had nothing to do with his faith being counted for righteousness.

Moses also became heir to the righteousness which is by faith:

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith" (Heb.11:7).​

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

How easily you just ignore what Paul said about David:

I know what Paul said, "Even also as..."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No no, that is not what happened. Think, what happened next between Philip and the eunuch?

Then the eunuch was baptized with water. But again, before he was baptized with water he had to believe.

And everyone who believes is saved:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life" (Jn.3:15-16).

So since the eunuch believed in the Lord Jesus he received eternal life.

 

[Tambora]

Then the eunuch was baptized with water. But again, before he was baptized with water he had to believe.

And everyone who believes is saved:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life" (Jn.3:15-16).

So since the eunuch believed in the Lord Jesus he received eternal life.

But does that necessarily mean that the eunuch was in the BOC?
In other words, is only the BOC promised eternal life, or can eternal life be granted to a group that is not the BOC?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I know what Paul said, "Even also as..."

You might know what he said but you certainly do not understand what he said. And that is why you just ignored my last post to you.

According to you David's faith was not accounted to him for righteousness even though Paul put his name right in the middle of the context on his discourse about that very thing. According to you even though David is named here his salvation had nothing to do with the "blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works"

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered" (Ro.4:5-7).​

Why would Paul mentioned David's name if David had nothing to do with the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works? Why would Paul then quote David to bolster his argument about one's faith being counted for righteousness?

 

[Danoh]

How is it all threads continue to end up being about the same subject?

Anyway, a word from an ancient believer in the Preservation of the Text, who at the same time had also believed the following about its Word to him...

Psalm 19

7. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12. Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You might know what he said but you certainly do not understand what he said. And that is why you just ignored my last post to you.

David was a prophet who wrote about a future time when sins were covered.

Paul uses many scriptures of the prophets to prove his case of what is future for them is present for the Body of Christ.

We disagree. Do you want to continue until you have ground me into a pillar of salt?

 

[Danoh]

David was a prophet who wrote about a future time when sins were covered.

Paul uses many scriptures of the prophets to prove his case of what is future for them is present for the Body of Christ.

We disagree. Do you want to continue until you have ground me into a pillar of salt?

Wouldn't that be with a pillar into salt :e4e:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Wouldn't that be with a pillar into salt :e4e:

If I was only half the wordsmith you are, Danoh the Great.

:drum:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But does that necessarily mean that the eunuch was in the BOC?
In other words, is only the BOC promised eternal life, or can eternal life be granted to a group that is not the BOC?

There were many who received eternal life prior to the beginning of the BOC, as witnessed by the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.

At this point I would like the focus of this thread to remain on water baptism and whether or not the Jews who lived under the law had to submit to the rite of water baptism in order to be saved.

Thanks!

 

[Danoh]

If I was only half the wordsmith you are, Danoh the Great.

:drum:

Mount Pilot High School, brother, lol

 

[Jerry Shugart]

David was a prophet who wrote about a future time when sins were covered.

No, Paul was writing about his own experiences:

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity...I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin" (Ps.32:1-2,5).​

Why would Paul insert David's name and quote his words in the middle of a discourse about one's faith being counted for righteousness if David had nothing at all to do with any of those things?

Your idea makes no sense!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Why would Paul insert David's name and quote his words in the middle of a discourse about one's faith being counted for righteousness if David had nothing at all to do with any of those things?

Your idea makes no sense!

Because David was a prophet, and his words agreed with Paul's point.