Rapture Ready
- Thread starter serpentdove
- Start date
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look at this passage again and perhaps you will finally address what I said::
"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation (apokaradokia) of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God...And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:18,19,23).
Here Paul is speaking of "the redemption of our body," an event that will happen when the Lord Jesus appears. The Greek word translated "earnest expectation" is "apokaradokia", and this word means "to watch with head erect or outstretched...to wait for in suspense" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
Strong's defines the word, saying it is "from a comparative of G575 and a compound of κάρα kára (the head) and G1380 (in the sense of watching); intense anticipation:—earnest expectation."
Vine says that the word means "primarily 'a watching with outstretched head' (apo, 'from,' kara, 'the head,' and dokeo, 'to look, to watch'), signifies "strained expectancy, eager longing," the stretching forth of the head indicating an 'expectation' of something from a certain place, Rom. 8:19; Phil. 1:20" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
The same Greek word "was used in Greek writings to describe the alert watchman who peered into the darkness, eagerly looking for the first gleam of the distant beacon which would announce the capture of Troy." (Precept Austin).
So according to the Greek experts the word that Paul used in regard to the "redemption of our body" is a word that indicates that this event can take place at any time.
Paul would not be telling anyone to be eagerly looking for the appearance of the Lord Jesus if that appearance could not even take place until after the great tribulation is over!
So far you have seen these facts two times and you refuse to even attempt to address them. I can understand why all I hear are the crickets. After all, what could you possibly say?
You overlook something that is very important and that is when this event will happen:
"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).
This event will be the thing which causes great tribulation to be shortened:
"That For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Mt.24:21-22).
Then immediately after the tribulation there will be signs in the sky (Mt.24:29) and here we will see what happens next:
"The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem" (Joel 3:15:16).
So these verses are speaking of the Lord Jesus coming from Jerusalem:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Mt.24:29-31).
So this is not speaking of the catching up of the saints.
Remember, His disciples' question was only in regard to the signs of His coming and not to His coming itself (Mt.24:3).
"
Daniel1769
New member
Mark 13 is about gathering the elect from the four winds. That's the rapture. It says it happens after the tribulation. It's plain as day. It's so plain and clear that only theologians could miss it. Seven posts later and we're still on one Greek word in one verse. You've shown no clear verses that say anything about the rapture happening before the tribulation. You wont, either, because they aren't there. There's no point in continuing. If your doctrine is resting on one word in one single verse, that doesn't even clearly mention anything like the rapture, and doesn't mention the tribulation, then you may want to think about that.
The danger with this pre-trib rapture is this. If the rapture were to happen at any second, the post-tribbers would be raptured. If the tribulation comes, and there is no rapture, then a lot of people are going to A. Say the Bible was wrong. Or B. Accept anti-christ as Christ. The pre-trib rapture is unbiblical, and it can easily lead to people abandoning Christianity in the last days.
It certainly is.
No, it's not.
It certainly does.
You are right about that, but it isn't the 'catching away of the Body of Christ.
It's the fulfilment of prophecy concerning Israel being regathered to the land promised.
There are all kinds of theologians and with differing opinions.
[/QUOTE]
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If its so plain then why did y0u not even attempt to answer what I said about it?
And why do you continue to run and hide from the fact that Paul used a word which indicates that the rapture could happen at any moment?
I answered your point about about Matthew 24:31 but you do not even attempt to answer my points. By the way, where in your timeline do you put the fulfillment of this prophect?:
"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east" (Zech.14:2-4).
Yes.
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Actually pre-tribbers will not be in trouble for speaking the truth, but for their speaking lies.
Can we not see that the ones disappointed as the troubles increase, will go after the pre-tribbers with a vengeance.
LA
Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
And you been gettin' yourself a head start, huh?
Dispensationalists ultimately believe God failed to deliver what was promised to Abraham, and that Christ didn't bring complete fulfillment- they think that there's all these 'loose ends' yet to occur 2000 years later. The promised land was established, the Messiah has come, and the Jews don't even really exist anymore- they are all Jewish by custom, period.
MADists simply want convenience without price- they have an 'easy belivist' lifestyle and then they'll be whisked away in a rapture when the burner is cut on.
It's entirely fueled by misguided faith, driving them to chop up the flow of God's providence and only look towards what feeds into the heresy- like the Jews returning to Israel in the 40's.
Now you have people that ought not be there occupying the country and using these 70 something million Christian's nonsense to justify remaining.
It's nothing but a facade- a bunch of people duped into something that merely calls itself 'Christianity'
MADists simply want convenience without price- they have an 'easy belivist' lifestyle and then they'll be whisked away in a rapture when the burner is cut on.
It's entirely fueled by misguided faith, driving them to chop up the flow of God's providence and only look towards what feeds into the heresy- like the Jews returning to Israel in the 40's.
Now you have people that ought not be there occupying the country and using these 70 something million Christian's nonsense to justify remaining.
It's nothing but a facade- a bunch of people duped into something that merely calls itself 'Christianity'
Face the truth and speak it .
There is no pre-trib rapture and you have no verses which say so.
The wrath of God is poured out after Chrisr's visible to all return, after He first He raises the dead in the first resurrection and gathers those mortals who believed and obeyed the last witness.
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
LA
But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner’s fire
And like launderers’ soap.
He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver;
He will purify the sons of Levi,
And purge them as gold and silver,
That they may offer to the Lord
An offering in righteousness. Mal 3:2–3
And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner’s fire
And like launderers’ soap.
He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver;
He will purify the sons of Levi,
And purge them as gold and silver,
That they may offer to the Lord
An offering in righteousness. Mal 3:2–3
everready
New member
The rapture debacle in a nutshell..
Jesuit End Times Antichrist Deception
This end times deception page will explain how the concepts of a one-man end-times Antichrist in a 7-year tribulation period became so prevalent, after 1800 years of Biblical teaching that knew nothing of the sort.
You will learn how the Jesuits of the Roman Catholic Church manipulated Bible prophecy to create an end-times Antichrist, in order to deflect blame away from them as the Antichrist system.
The Beasts of Daniel and Revelation study reveals that the Roman Catholic Church is the ‘beast of Revelation‘, the ‘Little Horn of Daniel‘, and the Pope, the ‘son of Perdition‘.
That’s not to say that there won’t be an end times False Messiah, but the truth is that Satan’s Antichrist beast has been waging war against Jesus and Christians since 538 A.D.
This study will explain how the Jesuits have pushed their deceptive Antichrist concepts during the last 500 years, so that they are taught to Pastors at seminary, and then preached to their congregations.
http://christianitybeliefs.org/end-times-deceptions/jesuit-end-times-antichrist-deception/
everready
Jesuit End Times Antichrist Deception
This end times deception page will explain how the concepts of a one-man end-times Antichrist in a 7-year tribulation period became so prevalent, after 1800 years of Biblical teaching that knew nothing of the sort.
You will learn how the Jesuits of the Roman Catholic Church manipulated Bible prophecy to create an end-times Antichrist, in order to deflect blame away from them as the Antichrist system.
The Beasts of Daniel and Revelation study reveals that the Roman Catholic Church is the ‘beast of Revelation‘, the ‘Little Horn of Daniel‘, and the Pope, the ‘son of Perdition‘.
That’s not to say that there won’t be an end times False Messiah, but the truth is that Satan’s Antichrist beast has been waging war against Jesus and Christians since 538 A.D.
This study will explain how the Jesuits have pushed their deceptive Antichrist concepts during the last 500 years, so that they are taught to Pastors at seminary, and then preached to their congregations.
http://christianitybeliefs.org/end-times-deceptions/jesuit-end-times-antichrist-deception/
everready
When we're all gone :listen: no we haven't been
linger: abducted by aliens.
Related:
Believe the Lie
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
These words of the Lord Jesus were in answer to His disciples' question here:
"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).
At the end of the age it will be the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will be left:
"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt.13:37-43).
So we can understand that at Luke 17:35-36 it is the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will remain.
That is the exact opposite of what will happen at the rapture because then it will be the righteous who are taken and the unrighteous who will be left.
This alone proves that the rapture must take place prior to the great tribulation.
Daniel1769
New member
If Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 aren't about the rapture of Christians, then there must be two raptures. You've not adressed this point at all. All you said was it's not about the rapture.
Further, I've pointed out that Strong's does not define "egizzio" as "imminent" and the KJV doesn't translate it that way, so your argument hinging on that is poor. Even if it did mean that it can "happen at anytime" then it would stand that it could happen after the tribulation. All you've shown is that it can happen at anytime. Anytime could be in 1 second or after the tribulation. You haven't shown one verse that says the rapture is before the tribulation, and frankly, I'm bored of discussing one word that you dug around to find a definition you like, and STILL proves nothing even if your definition is correct. I'm bored of asking you for a single verse over and over that says that it's before the tribulation. You won't do it because you can't. The pre-trib rapture relies on charts, and books, and dictionaries, and everything imaginable except the Bible because it is an unbiblical lie made up by heretics in the 19th century.
everready
New member
When we're all gone :listen: no we haven't been1 Thess. 4:16, 17 :dizzy:
Related:
Believe the Lie
Its all woven into the counter reformation my friend..
http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/order-of-jesuits.html
everready
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look at the Lord's words here from the 24th chapter of Matthew:
"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:38-41).
These words of the Lord Jesus were in answer to His disciples' question here:
"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).
At the end of the age it will be the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will be left:
"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt.13:37-43).
So we can understand that at Matthew 24:38-41 it is the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will remain.
That is the exact opposite of what will happen at the rapture because then it will be the righteous who will be taken and the unrighteous who will be left.
That proves that the coming of the Lord Jesus as described in the 24th chapter of Matthews has nothing to do with the rapture!
The word to which I was referring is apokaradokia:
"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation (apokaradokia) of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God...And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:18,19,23).
Here Paul is speaking of "the redemption of our body," an event that will happen when the Lord Jesus appears. The Greek word translated "earnest expectation" is "apokaradokia", and this word means "to watch with head erect or outstretched...to wait for in suspense" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
Strong's defines that word as "intense anticipation:—earnest expectation."
Vine says that the word means "primarily 'a watching with outstretched head' (apo, 'from,' kara, 'the head,' and dokeo, 'to look, to watch'), signifies "strained expectancy, eager longing," the stretching forth of the head indicating an 'expectation' of something from a certain place, Rom. 8:19; Phil. 1:20" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
The same Greek word "was used in Greek writings to describe the alert watchman who peered into the darkness, eagerly looking for the first gleam of the distant beacon which would announce the capture of Troy." (Precept Austin).
Paul would not be telling anyone to be eagerly looking for the appearance of the Lord Jesus if that appearance could not even take place until after the great tribulation is over!
Perhaps this time you will actually address this fact.
Thanks!
Last edited:
Right Divider
Body part
You seem to be the one that can't think straight.
The ones "taken" in Matt. 24 are taken in judgment. The ones left will enter into the kingdom.
That's EXACTLY the opposite of what Paul is teaching in Thessalonians.
Matt 24:37-42 (AKJV/PCE)
(24:37) But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (24:38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (24:39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (24:40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (24:41) Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (24:42) ¶ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
This is NOT what Paul is preaching. It is the opposite.