Rapture Ready
- Thread starter serpentdove
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Greek word translated "draweth nigh" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
The word "imminent" means that it could happen at any moment. And since James believed that the rapture could happen any moment then he knew that it was not going to happen until after the great tribulation is over.
Sometimes it is necessary to use a little common sense in order to understand what is taught in the Bible.
"not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction" (2 Thess.2:2-3; NIV).
The "day of the Lord" is not referring to the rapture:
"Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light" (Amos 5:18).
Paul recognized it and wrote about it.
Evidently it was a revelation given to Paul by the Lord Jesus and Paul recognized it.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
There it is.
Plain as the nose on your face.
Why can't you folks recognize it.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look at this verse and pay attention to the words "caught up":
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).
The following is the same verse from the Latin Vulgate and the Greek word translated "caught up" in the English Bible is translated as rapiemur in the Vulgate:
"deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cvm illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cvm Domino erimus" (1 Thess.4:17; Latin Vulgate).
So at some point in time the word "rapture" began to be used to describe the event when Christians will be "caught up" to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, too many of them put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than they do in what the Scriptures actually say.
I find that most of them are too lazy to explore the Scriptures to find the truth so they are wiling to let other people do their thinking for them.
In fact, Daniel1769 seemed to get upset that I would go to the trouble of looking up the meaning of Greek words in my effort to find out the truth about the rapture.
Even though I gave him more than one Greek expert to support the meaning of a particular Greek word he still refused to consider that meaning.
Would you classify his attitude as being anti-scholastic?
Cool story.
Except that the verse isn't speaking of your rapture, it's the moment following God's Judgement. You all simply take 'rapture' too far.
Your rapture was originally emphasized as the 'secret rapture' because of the fact that it simply is not plain in the Bible. It requires a lot of dubious interpretations and over reaching assumptions of Revelation.
The fact is that 'rapture theory' exists so heavily today out of almost entirely demand that it be the case- theologically speaking it is straight up fanatical. It's on par with Muslims and 72 virgins, straight up
lain:The Rapture is PreTrib due to the fact of Romans 5:1-2 in light of Romans 5:8.
Thus, Romans 5:9-10.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
The result being that all we need do is to faithfully access that by faith, towards resting in its' fact...
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
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Personally, I also don't really bother with the Greek in my study of Scripture and or any later support of an argument.
It's the resulting doctrine or teaching that a collective of passages result in that then make or unmake the case of a thing being or not being so.
The resulting doctrine or understanding then allow seeing what's what.
That and how words are used in a sentence and or within a collective of related sentences.
As a result, for many years now, I have VERY often found myself able to see where those who heavily rely on the Greek are coming from without having had to turn to it myself.
All I mostly rely on is time in the Formal, Early Modern English of my KJV, together with an equally heavy reliance on how Rules of Grammar operate in the communicating of intended sense through words.
Tribulation, is not the Wrath of God.
There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
There is a pre-wrath rapture.
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
LA
There is no pre-tribulation rapture.
There is a pre-wrath rapture.
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
LA
You have proven nothing.
Their suffering was an evidence - was because...God has delayed His pending wrath that they might be counted worthy - that He might save people...before that Great and Terrible Day of the LORD in His Wrath.
They were suffering at the hands of men as a result of God's delay of His Wrath that He might save people before He pours said Wrath out...
God's delay of His Wrath results in the lost concluding that the saved are the ones wasting their time on a lost cause.
Philippians 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Such things are hard to be understood by those unlearned, who as a result, are unstable (in contrast to be "stablished in the faith"), thus their/your twisting of the passages to your own destruction as to your so called understanding before those who are learned.
Fact of the matter?
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
musterion
Well-known member
Makes perfect sense if one believes he has permanently replaced national Israel in God's favor, that God is forever finished with Jews as Jews, and so the events depicted as following the Rapture - which center on an actual chosen nation of restored Jews - can't happen. That's why the very idea of secular, apostate little Israel so offfends them NOW. Just wait until God once again grants Jews "Most Favored Nation" status.
When that happens, remember who else is going to hate Israel. The development of Replacement theology and Dominionism isn't a coincidence.
On top of all that, why would God remove the church from the earth when the church is actually Israel and so is going to inherit and rule the earth? If you start with the premise that we are Israel, their hatred of the idea of the Rapture makes perfect sense. It denies them what they think God has promised they have coming.
Now let's see who's the first to chime in with the racist Z word.
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musterion
Well-known member
Incidentally...hoo boy...
http://apostolicpreterist.com/site/...cpreterist.com/The_beast_was_Israel.html#2769
http://apostolicpreterist.com/site/...cpreterist.com/The_beast_was_Israel.html#2769
Modern day Jews have no real lineage to David. They are all Jewish only by spirit, your heresy doesn't even have an existing palette.
The Christians in Rome and Greece have both been actively speaking against people there using your ideology to occupy Israel. You can't force prophesy, especially prophesy that isn't what you think it is. And I think that's all MADism really is, a twisting and usurping of God's will- Israel, rapture, having some monopoly on dispensations- I think you all oughta can it for real :wave2:
The Christians in Rome and Greece have both been actively speaking against people there using your ideology to occupy Israel. You can't force prophesy, especially prophesy that isn't what you think it is. And I think that's all MADism really is, a twisting and usurping of God's will- Israel, rapture, having some monopoly on dispensations- I think you all oughta can it for real :wave2:
Daniel1769
New member
There is nothing in any of those verses about the tribulation. I've posted at least 4 verses that specifically say that the rapture is after the tribulation. They haven't been responded to by anyone here yet, and no one has posted any verses that say it is after the the tribulation. The pre-trib rapture is not in the Bible and was not taught as a doctrine before 1830.
musterion
Well-known member
Once Upon a Time, not too awful long ago in the scheme of things, salvation by grace through faith without works was taught nowhere and would get you burned alive for believing it.
Did the fact that virtually no one believed it make it false?
Daniel1769
New member
Wait a minute. You just got done saying the day of the Lord is imminent so it means the rapture can happen at any moment, but now you're saying the day of the Lord isn't the rapture?
SECONDLY, Strong's defines "eggizo" as "to be near" or "to be nigh." Not as "imminent."
And finally, I've posted at least four verses that specifically state that the rapture is AFTER the tribulation. You haven't posted a single verse that says it's before. The only thing you've done is dwell on the definition of a Greek word in one verse, and Strong's doesn't even have the definition you're giving. So that argument falls flat.
Can you show me one single verse that says it's before? And if you can, please explain Matt 23, Mark 13, Luke 21, and why the catching away is stated to be at the LAST trumpet.
Daniel1769
New member
It was taught no where but people were burned for it? If they were burned for it, then it must have been taught.
Also, when was it not taught? It was taught since Genesis. All those who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. It's always been taught, and it will always be taught until the end of the world, even if people are burned for it.
musterion
Well-known member
Only by a very few that the authority of Rome considered heretics.
You can't even think straight.
You're making the same appeal to human ecclesiastical authority that Catholics still do to deny salvation by grace through faith without works, which God revealed through Paul. Your appeal is, if no one before a certain date who YOU consider an authority taught a pre-tribulation Rapture - which He also revealed through Paul - then it must be false. That's your argument and it's stupid. Just as with salvation by faith alone in Christ without works, the Bible still teaches the Rapture whether you see it or not.
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