Jn 8:37
Rapture Ready
- Thread starter serpentdove
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Daniel1769
New member
Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21. Rapture after the Tribulation but before the Wrath of the Lord. Should be an open and shut case. Open the Bible, then shut it after you see the clear cut answer.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul used a Greek word in regard to the Lord's appearing that can only mean that His appearing could "occur at any moment":
"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation (apokaradokia) of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God...And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:18,19,23).
Here Paul is speaking of "the redemption of our body", an event that will happen when the Lord Jesus appears. The Greek word translated "earnest expectation" is apokaradokia, and this word means "to watch with head erect or outstretched...to wait for in suspense" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
Vine says that the word means "primarily 'a watching with outstretched head' (apo, 'from,' kara, 'the head,' and dokeo, 'to look, to watch'), signifies "strained expectancy, eager longing," the stretching forth of the head indicating an 'expectation' of something from a certain place, Rom. 8:19; Phil. 1:20" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
The same Greek word "was used in Greek writings to describe the alert watchman who peered into the darkness, eagerly looking for the first gleam of the distant beacon which would announce the capture of Troy" (Precept Austin).
So according to the Greek experts the word that Paul used in regard to the "redemption of our body" is a word that indicates that this event can take place at any time.
Paul would not be telling anyone to be eagerly watching for the appearing of the Lord Jesus if that appearing could not happen until after the great tribulation is over. Therefore, we can know that the catching up of the saints can happen anytime and that means that the saints of this present dispensation will not be on the earth during the great tribulation.
"As a reminder SaulToPaul is number 57 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category."-serpentdove
This devil child also pegged me the same way, Mayor, putting me on the list. Reckon he has that list confused with the Esquire Club member list? It's a mite curious. But I am gaining on you, squirt.
Post #56
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?122135-Believing-in-vain-1Co-15-2/page4
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Let us look at this verse and pay attention to the words "caught up":
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).
The following is the same verse from the Latin Vulgate and the Greek word translated "caught up" in the English Bible is translated as rapiemur in the Vulgate:
"deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cvm illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cvm Domino erimus" (1 Thess.4:17; Latin Vulgate).
So at some point in time the word "rapture" began to be used to describe the event when Christians will be "caught up" to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.
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The 'Rapture' is mostly new age wishful thinking, which has led to nothing but false prophets and Christians making fools of themselves.
When the End Times approach, ever Christian worth their salt will know it- and one would be wise not to go off into the hills looking for a clear spot to assume upward
Hi and we can see that you do NOT know your bible !!
And I know of dispensationalist who use the Latin word to prove that there is a RAPTURE , but IN THe Greek text is no word in the bible !!
Let me show another word that all over LOOK in Gal 1:4 and it is the Greek word HE MIGHT DELIVER / EXAIREO and that word means to PLUCK OUT and is in the AORIST TENSE and poinys back to all believers salvation BUT is controlled by the SUBJECTIVE MOOD which I believe that only will happen when Christ decides to come for US !!
In 1 Thess 4:17 the Greek SHALL BE CAUGHT /HARPAZO also means to PLUCK OUT as does the Gal 1:4 passage !!
In 2 Thess 2:3 it is the the Greek APOSTAMISA which means a DEPARTURE from earth !!
dan p
Daniel1769
New member
So one must be fluent in Koine Greek to understand the Bible? Get out of here with that. If your response to clear cut pieces of scripture is "But the ancient greek in this one part says..." then you have a problem. Jesus said the rapture is AFTER the tribulation at least THREE times, n Mat. 23, Mark 13, Luke 21. Paul warns that the anti-christ must be revealed before the rapture. This all lines up with Revelation. There is nothing in the Bible that states that the rapture will be before the tribulation. I defy you to show me one single verse that tells us that the rapture is first. I showed THREE that explicitly say that the rapture is after the tribulation.
The Pre-trib rapture can never be explained by scripture. Proponents always need charts, and graphs, and their pedestrian google-search Koine Greek. It's not evident in scripture, and was not a doctrine that was taught until the late 19th century.
Hi and all that you have shown , CONCERNS the Second Coming of Jesus to save Israel as in Rom 11:26 , so study before engaging mouth !!
1 Cor 15:51 -58 and 2 Thess 2:3 and 1 THESS 4:13-18 concern the B O C and we are not Israel !!
dan p
Daniel1769
New member
1. So...there are two raptures? One for Israel and one for everyone else? I'd like book, chapter, and verse that says there are two raptures, if that is your contention. It must be, if the rapture in Mark 13 is, as you say, only for Israel.
2. Which part says it's about Israel? I read it, and I don't see anything that says it's about Israel. But I do see exactly where it says it was for everyone.
At the end of Mark 13, after Jesus explicitly says that the rapture is after the tribulation, He said,
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
3. Christ's people are Israel. Galatians 3.
Hi and I will says it just for you , there is NO GREEK word for RAPTURE in the bible !!
You have COMPLETELY Ignored the CONTEXT in Matt 24 and in Mark and in Luke !!
Watch this GRASSHOPPER , in Gal 3:28 there are NEITHER Jews and NEITHER Greek !!
Explain that IF you can ??
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, you do not need to be fluent because you can simply look up the meaning of Greek words using an "Interlinear Greek-English New Testament" and a "Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament."
You can find those things on the Internet. This site is very helpful:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1679&t=KJV
When we look at the following passage we can know that the early Christians understood that the coming of the Lord Jesus to catch up the saints was "imminent":
"You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is at hand (eggizo). Don't grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!" (James 5:8-9).
The Greek word translated "at hand" at James 5:8 is eggizo and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).
When we combine James 5:9 with the one which precedes it we see a twofold revelation of imminency in regard to the coming of the Lord. What cannot be missed is the fact that the phrase "The Judge is standing at the door" (referring to the "judgment seat of Christ") reinforces the idea that the coming of the Lord is an imminent coming.
If an event such as the great tribulation must precede the "catching up" of the saints then it could not be said that the Lord's appearance is "at hand" or emminent. That is because it could not be said to be at hand until after the great tribulation is over.
So we can know that the catching up of the saints precedes the great tribulation.
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Daniel1769
New member
First of all, in James 5:8, in the King James, I see "Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh."
"Nigh" means "near." The day of the Lord, i.e. the rapture, is nigh. It is near. It doesn't mean it will happen at any given moment. According to the Bible, the rapture will not happen at any moment. As we see in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, the Anti-Christ will be revealed first. And in Matt. 23, Mark 13, and Luke 21, we see the tribulation happens, then the sun and moon are darkened, and then the rapture.
All of the trumpets will blow before the rapture, as the rapture happens at the last trumpet as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:51, and in Revelation.
I've just referenced numerous verses that tell some of the major events that will take place before the rapture. Can you give me any verse that says that the rapture is before the tribulation? If you can, then we have some contradictions in the Bible. Fortunately, the Bible is perfect, and there is no contradiction. The rapture is clearly and unequivocally after the tribulation.
Daniel1769
New member
There is no word "trinity" in the Bible either. What's your point? The concept is there. Further, I'm waiting for you to explain how there are two raptures. If it is your contention that Mark 13 is about Israel, then there must be two raptures. Explain.
No, but it sometimes helps for further understanding to know the Greek word meaning behind the English translation.
"Oh, you go on away from here, Miss Daisy."
Uh...the NT was written in Greek as far back as we know. Was it not?
Please show me the word 'rapture' in those texts.
Please show me the word 'rapture' in 2Thess 2.
What does?
The tribulation is within the 70th week which is appointed to Daniel's people, Israel.
Within the new creation , the body of Christ, there is neither Jew not Gentile.
Paul said that believers should comfort one another with his words about the rapture. He then speaks of the day of the Lord which pertains to Israel.
There's a sequence of events described in 1Thess 4 and 5.
It's there for th' looking.
Please show me the word rapture in those chapters.
Do you think that there have ever been people as defiant as yourself against a pre-trib rapture who later changed their mind when they began to see evidence in Scripture for a pre-trib rapture?
Hi and it will be tommow as I have to leave !!
All should see that the Gospels were written to Jewish people and that is why Jesus saved Paul in Acts 9:6 and than there began the Revelation of the MYSTRY in Rom 16:25 and 26 , Col 1:25 and 26 !!
So read that what Paul wrote in Col 1:25 and 26 was HIDDEN until reaveled to Paul !!
You have to be a NEW ONE !!
DAN P
Daniel1769
New member
So you took the scenic root to saying that you can't show me one verse that says the rapture is before the tribulation?
Or are you saying there is no rapture? You keep asking "where is the word rapture?" That word isn't in the Bible, so I guess you have no evidence that the rapture is before the tribulation.
I don't know what your position is, you didn't state it, and you offered no scripture. I'm not interested in dancing around the question with you. If you're going to quote my posts, then state your position and scripture. If not, move along.
Daniel1769
New member
So you're one of those Zionists that arbitrarily divide up the Bible and say which part is for who. I'm not interested in your Zionist judaizing garbage. Good day.
The way the dispensationalists, Christian Zionists, Separation Theology guys or followers of the Rapture Cult arrive at their version of the tribulation is by use of their "hermeneutic," which is to begin from their theology and then search for scriptures which they can say support that theology.
Their theology does not emphasize that the tribulation in Matthew 24: 4-31 is about deception, false prophets, the abomination of desolation, and the appearing of Christ immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24: 29-31).
Note that deceive, from planao, is used in Matthew 24: 4, 24: 5,24: 11,and 24: 24, or four times. Revelation 13: 14 echoes Matthew 24 in saying " And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."
In Revelation 13: 6, them that dwell in heaven are distinguished from those in Revelation 13: 12, who dwell on the earth and worship the first beast and those of 13: 14, who dwell on the earth, who are to make an image to the beast.
The phrase τους κατοικουντας επι της γης, those who dwell on the earth, is found in a number of other scriptures. Does "those who dwell on the earth" mean just all who are living on earth, or does it have another meaning?
Revelation 3:10: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
In Revelation 6: 10 those who are praying to God to judge those that dwell on the earth are those who were killed for their testimony to the word of God and are at that time under the alter, in heaven, as stated in revelation 6: 9.
Those in heaven cry to God to judge those who dwell on the earth, indicating a conflict or opposition spiritually (and probably physically also) between those who dwell on the earth and those in heaven who apparently were killed by those who dwell on the earth because of their testimony to the word of God.
Luke 21:35-36: "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
Here again, in Luke 21: 35-36, there is an implied separation, or difference between the earth dwellers and those who are accounted worthy to escape those things that are coming upon the earth dwellers.
Luke 21 is a parallel chapter to Matthew 24, on the tribulation. And so what is said about the tribulation in both chapters can be combined. Deception is mentioned in Matthew 24: 4, 5, 11, 24 - and the false prophets who carry out the deception are seen Matthew 24: 5, 24: 11 and Matthew 24: 24.
"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24: 5
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." Matthew 24: 11
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24: 24
The tribulation is a time in which the false prophets deceive the people, those claiming to be Christians. The earth dwellers are deceived by the false prophets, but those in Luke 21: 35-36 accounted worthy to escape the things of the tribulation are not deceived.
Lets look at more texts which include the phrase them that dwell on the earth or earth dwellers. Revelation 11:10: "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."
Revelation 11 on the two witnesses, or δυσιν μαρτυσιν, two martyrs, is in difficult metaphoric language. And, it is the earth dwellers, who tend to insist that Revelation 11 - the two witnesses - are two literal guys.
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." Revelation 11: 8.
Revelation 11: 8 is metaphor, and is not saying that literally the bodies of the two witnesses are to lie in the street of Jerusalem over in the Middle East. The earth dwellers in Revelation 11: 10 rejoice because the witnesses are killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit, which is more metaphor.
Their theology does not emphasize that the tribulation in Matthew 24: 4-31 is about deception, false prophets, the abomination of desolation, and the appearing of Christ immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24: 29-31).
Note that deceive, from planao, is used in Matthew 24: 4, 24: 5,24: 11,and 24: 24, or four times. Revelation 13: 14 echoes Matthew 24 in saying " And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."
In Revelation 13: 6, them that dwell in heaven are distinguished from those in Revelation 13: 12, who dwell on the earth and worship the first beast and those of 13: 14, who dwell on the earth, who are to make an image to the beast.
The phrase τους κατοικουντας επι της γης, those who dwell on the earth, is found in a number of other scriptures. Does "those who dwell on the earth" mean just all who are living on earth, or does it have another meaning?
Revelation 3:10: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
In Revelation 6: 10 those who are praying to God to judge those that dwell on the earth are those who were killed for their testimony to the word of God and are at that time under the alter, in heaven, as stated in revelation 6: 9.
Those in heaven cry to God to judge those who dwell on the earth, indicating a conflict or opposition spiritually (and probably physically also) between those who dwell on the earth and those in heaven who apparently were killed by those who dwell on the earth because of their testimony to the word of God.
Luke 21:35-36: "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
Here again, in Luke 21: 35-36, there is an implied separation, or difference between the earth dwellers and those who are accounted worthy to escape those things that are coming upon the earth dwellers.
Luke 21 is a parallel chapter to Matthew 24, on the tribulation. And so what is said about the tribulation in both chapters can be combined. Deception is mentioned in Matthew 24: 4, 5, 11, 24 - and the false prophets who carry out the deception are seen Matthew 24: 5, 24: 11 and Matthew 24: 24.
"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24: 5
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." Matthew 24: 11
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24: 24
The tribulation is a time in which the false prophets deceive the people, those claiming to be Christians. The earth dwellers are deceived by the false prophets, but those in Luke 21: 35-36 accounted worthy to escape the things of the tribulation are not deceived.
Lets look at more texts which include the phrase them that dwell on the earth or earth dwellers. Revelation 11:10: "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."
Revelation 11 on the two witnesses, or δυσιν μαρτυσιν, two martyrs, is in difficult metaphoric language. And, it is the earth dwellers, who tend to insist that Revelation 11 - the two witnesses - are two literal guys.
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." Revelation 11: 8.
Revelation 11: 8 is metaphor, and is not saying that literally the bodies of the two witnesses are to lie in the street of Jerusalem over in the Middle East. The earth dwellers in Revelation 11: 10 rejoice because the witnesses are killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit, which is more metaphor.
You said that the Lord Jesus said that the rapture occurs in Mt 24, Mk 13 and Lk 21.
I asked you to please show me where.