Protecting Loved Ones

Mark SeaSigh

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Under the New Testiment, is it wrong to stand up for a loved one? That is, if they are under a threat.
Example: A man hits your wife, from that point (biblically) what should you do? (Under New Convenient)

"Please back up statements with scripture."

=M=

[Exodus 22:2 KJV] 1 If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep. 2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, [there shall] no blood [be shed] for him.

3 If the sun be risen upon him, [there shall be] blood [shed] for him; [for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. 4 If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ***, or sheep; he shall restore double. 5 If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution. 6 If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed [therewith]; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution. 7 If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double. 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, [to see] whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, [whether it be] for ox, for ***, for sheep, for raiment, [or] for any manner of lost thing, which [another] challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; [and] whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour. 10 If a man deliver unto his neighbour an ***, or an ox, or a sheep, or any beast, to keep; and it die, or be hurt, or driven away, no man seeing [it]: 11 [Then] shall an oath of the LORD be between them both, that he hath not put his hand unto his neighbour's goods; and the owner of it shall accept [thereof], and he shall not make [it] good. 12 And if it be stolen from him, he shall make restitution unto the owner thereof. 13 If it be torn in pieces, [then] let him bring it [for] witness, [and] he shall not make good that which was torn. 14 And if a man borrow [ought] of his neighbour, and it be hurt, or die, the owner thereof [being] not with it, he shall surely make [it] good. 15 [But] if the owner thereof [be] with it, he shall not make [it] good: if it [be] an hired [thing], it came for his hire. 16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. 17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. 18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. 19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. 20 He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. 21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. 22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child. 23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry; 24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless. 25 If thou lend money to [any of] my people [that is] poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury. 26 If thou at all take thy neighbour's raiment to pledge, thou shalt deliver it unto him by that the sun goeth down: 27 For that [is] his covering only, it [is] his raiment for his skin: wherein shall he sleep? and it shall come to pass, when he crieth unto me, that I will hear; for I [am] gracious. 28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people. 29 Thou shalt not delay [to offer] the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me. 30 Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, [and] with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me. 31 And ye shall be holy men unto me: neither shall ye eat [any] flesh [that is] torn of beasts in the field; ye shall cast it to the dogs.


[Ezekiel 16:23-42 KJV] 23 And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the Lord GOD;) 24 [That] thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street. 25 Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms. 26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger. 27 Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary [food], and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way. 28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. 29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith. 30 How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord GOD, seeing thou doest all these [things], the work of an imperious whorish woman; 31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire; 32 [But as] a wife that committeth adultery, [which] taketh strangers instead of her husband! 33 They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom. 34 And the contrary is in thee from [other] women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary. 35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD: 36 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; 37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all [them] that thou hast loved, with all [them] that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. 38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. 39 And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare. 40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords. 41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more. 42 So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.

And the Word of God Says this in Joel;

[Joel 3:1-21 KJV] 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and [for] my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. 4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly [and] speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. 7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken [it]. 9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I [am] strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness [is] great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 17 So shall ye know that I [am] the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. 18 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. 19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence [against] the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. 20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will cleanse their blood [that] I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

God Also Says;

[Exodus 6:1-30 KJV] 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I [am] the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I [am] the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I [am] the LORD. 9 And Moses spake so unto the children of Israel: but they hearkened not unto Moses for anguish of spirit, and for cruel bondage. 10 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 11 Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land. 12 And Moses spake before the LORD, saying, Behold, the children of Israel have not hearkened unto me; how then shall Pharaoh hear me, who [am] of uncircumcised lips? 13 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, and gave them a charge unto the children of Israel, and unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, to bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt. 14 These [be] the heads of their fathers' houses: The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel; Hanoch, and Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi: these [be] the families of Reuben. 15 And the sons of Simeon; Jemuel, and Jamin, and Ohad, and Jachin, and Zohar, and Shaul the son of a Canaanitish woman: these [are] the families of Simeon. 16 And these [are] the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations; Gershon, and Kohath, and Merari: and the years of the life of Levi [were] an hundred thirty and seven years. 17 The sons of Gershon; Libni, and Shimi, according to their families. 18 And the sons of Kohath; Amram, and Izhar, and Hebron, and Uzziel: and the years of the life of Kohath [were] an hundred thirty and three years. 19 And the sons of Merari; Mahali and Mushi: these [are] the families of Levi according to their generations. 20 And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram [were] an hundred and thirty and seven years. 21 And the sons of Izhar; Korah, and Nepheg, and Zichri. 22 And the sons of Uzziel; Mishael, and Elzaphan, and Zithri. 23 And Aaron took him Elisheba, daughter of Amminadab, sister of Naashon, to wife; and she bare him Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. 24 And the sons of Korah; Assir, and Elkanah, and Abiasaph: these [are] the families of the Korhites. 25 And Eleazar Aaron's son took him [one] of the daughters of Putiel to wife; and she bare him Phinehas: these [are] the heads of the fathers of the Levites according to their families. 26 These [are] that Aaron and Moses, to whom the LORD said, Bring out the children of Israel from the land of Egypt according to their armies. 27 These [are] they which spake to Pharaoh king of Egypt, to bring out the children of Israel from Egypt: these [are] that Moses and Aaron. 28 And it came to pass on the day [when] the LORD spake unto Moses in the land of Egypt, 29 That the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, I [am] the LORD: speak thou unto Pharaoh king of Egypt all that I say unto thee. 30 And Moses said before the LORD, Behold, I [am] of uncircumcised lips, and how shall Pharaoh hearken unto me?


If a Man Breaks into a House Where your Family Lives, and you think he is an Intruder so you kill him/her; You Protect your Family, or where is your Honor?


If a Cop Breaks into a House Where your Family Lives, and you think he is an Intruder so you kill him/her; You Protect your Family, or where is your Honour?


Don't Steal.
 
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Mr. Adam

New member
I understand that I have spelling Errors. I'm not necessarily the best at spelling. (Which, I still should have spelled covenant correctly). But I digress, the means of trickery is not at hand. Its simply the case of, my literature sucks. And I joined the forum to understand further understand the bible, not to fiddle over my misuses of spelling or Grammar.
The real question is this: is it right to lie to and deceive your brothers and sisters in Christ? Because no one who spells 'testament' 'testiment' and 'covenant' 'convenient' gets to spell 'biblically' correctly or use advanced syntax like 'That is, if they are under a threat.' or 'Example: A man hits your wife'.

You are not debating but baiting and using cheap tricks to cover up your real identity.
 

musterion

Well-known member
You want to pick holes in the coats of the righteous as Gros does.

You are not righteous. The righteous do not snottily threaten the hand of God against those who are safe in His Son just because they lose arguments on the internet. Paul had ample opportunity to do so but not even he dared imprecate against anyone for simply disagreeing with him, the way you have more than once against believers right here on TOL.
 

matt86

New member
When I look at the self defense scriptures and everything that I can find, from what I gather Jesus condemned aggression, but condoned self defense. I feel like Luke 22:36 is the best example of this in the bible. If you have more please share them.
 

Mr. Adam

New member
Exodus 22:2-3 tells us that an intruder can be killed when it is likely he's come to kill or at least ready to do violence (breaking and entering at night, when residents can be expected to be home), while an intruder come to steal, not expecting a confrontation with residents (during daylight, when residents can be expected to be absent) should not be. The legal principle there establishes that the perceived intent of the intruder must be taken into account. In other words, if you have a reasonable fear for your life then homicide is justified.

Luke 22:36-39 tells us that Jesus approved of being armed and capable of defending oneself when appropriate. Foreseeing the need for armed defense, He instructed His followers to arm themselves.

Proverbs 25:21-22 and Romans 12:17 tell us not repay evil with evil, but to bless our enemies. Note that these verses establish, if not specifically, that once an evil has been done it is not your place to take vengeance, so these are not proscriptions against defense.

Matthew 5:39 instructs us to turn the other cheek, but a strike on the cheek is presented here as an insult, not as an act of violence and certainly not a deadly one nor one that can reasonably be perceived as such. Here we are instructed to absorb or ignore insults, even a smack on the cheek, not deadly violence nor even violence that may cause injury. A slap on the cheek risks neither. It's presented purely as a powerful and evocative example of insult, not as a violent act.

In Matthew 26:51-54 we see Jesus rebuke Peter for striking out at the Roman guards, but this was for two reasons. One, interfering with Jesus being taken into custody would interfere with God's plan. Two, Peter committed a crime by attacking the guards, who were doing their jobs. Peter would have faced charges and been executed. Dying by the sword, so to speak, for having wielded the sword contrary to the law, just as Jesus pointed out to him.

So...

Where does the New Testament specifically grant the right to defense and self defense?

Nowhere. Nor does it speak against it. It's assumed, as verses throughout the bible clearly show.
Thank you. You have presented the best point I have yet to see.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Why didn't all the Christian martyr's see his point?
Why did the ante-Nicene Christians oppose military service for believers?
Why did Jesus tell his followers the consequence of living by the sword?
 

elohiym

Well-known member
When I look at the self defense scriptures and everything that I can find, from what I gather Jesus condemned aggression, but condoned self defense. I feel like Luke 22:36 is the best example of this in the bible. If you have more please share them.

Luke 22:36 is not about taking a sword for self defense. He said two swords were enough. Do you think two swords were enough for self-defense against the Jewish authorities and the Roman authorities (Romans 13:1-7)?

The Greek word translated to sword mean slaughter knife. You're thinking sword for battle, but Jesus was thinking knife for dressing fish and game. Two knives would be enough for that, not for self-defense.

And don't overlook what Paul wrote:

2 Corinthians 10:4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
 

Huckleberry

New member
Why didn't all the Christian martyr's see his point?
Why did the ante-Nicene Christians oppose military service for believers?
Why did Jesus tell his followers the consequence of living by the sword?
Does refusing to defend oneself automatically make one a martyr?
Is military service the same as self defense?
Does "living by the sword" refer to self defense or being a violent criminal?

I was going to ask why you didn't just challenge my post if you disagree with it, but I think I see why now.
 

Huckleberry

New member
Luke 22:36 is not about taking a sword for self defense. He said two swords were enough. Do you think two swords were enough for self-defense against the Jewish authorities and the Roman authorities (Romans 13:1-7)?
Who say they were preparing to fight them? It's obvious, just as you say, that they weren't. Considering Jesus immediately before referred to how they supplied themselves when He'd sent them out previously, He's clearly talking their supplying themselves. So supplying themselves for what? Again, considering the context, in that He was about to be taken away from them and crucified...supplying themselves for the time fast approaching when He would not be with them.

Luke 22: 35-38
35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.”


The context seems clear enough. :idunno:


The Greek word translated to sword mean slaughter knife. You're thinking sword for battle, but Jesus was thinking knife for dressing fish and game.
The word "sword" in Luke 22:38 is absolutely a literal sword, unless you're going to suggest "machaira" means a fishing knife. Or maybe you can explain why Jesus told them to sell their clothing to buy some apparently extremely necessary fishing knives in Luke 22:36 and then, when they showed Him two swords in Luke 22:38, He didn't bonk them on their heads for being idiots.

Two knives would be enough for that, not for self-defense.
Two swords would be enough for self defense, but not for an armed insurrection or even to fight the Roman guards. Which is the actual point here.
And don't overlook what Paul wrote:

2 Corinthians 10:4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
Fine. But we're talking about self-defense, not "our warfare".
 
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aikido7

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Under the New Testament, is it wrong to stand up for a loved one. That is, if they are under a threat.
Example: A man hits your wife, from that point (biblically) what should you do? (Under New Covenant)

Please back up statements with scripture.
Jesus said not to respond to violence in kind.

I am aware that there are many, many ways of responding to conflict besides giving in or fighting back. Jesus's teaching of turning one's cheek after being struck has to do with forcing the opponent to use his right hand to strike. A blow from the right hand signified violence between equals. The Semitic culture used the left hand to strike inferiors (women, slaves or "enemies").

By being hit with the right hand, the person could assert his or her own dignity and equality, thus challenging and changing the underlying game.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Does refusing to defend oneself automatically make one a martyr?

Of course not.

Why didn't the martyrs defend themselves?

Is military service the same as self defense?

Soldiers believe they are defending their country in some way.

Why did the Ante-Nicene church reject military service for Christians?

Does "living by the sword" refer to self defense or being a violent criminal?

Jesus made the statement in a self-defense context.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Who say they were preparing to fight them? It's obvious, just as you say, that they weren't. Considering Jesus immediately before referred to how they supplied themselves when He'd sent them out previously, He's clearly talking their supplying themselves. So supplying themselves for what? Again, considering the context, in that He was about to be taken away from them and crucified...supplying themselves for the time fast approaching when He would not be with them.

Luke 22: 35-38
35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.”


The context seems clear enough. :idunno:

The context is things you need for daily living as a travelling minister, like a money bag, a knapsack and a knife to cut meat with.

3162 máχaira – properly, a slaughter-knife; a short sword or dagger mainly used for stabbing; (figuratively) an instrument for exacting retribution.

1. a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh: Homer, Pindar, Herodotus,​

Why on earth would I think Jesus was telling them to carry daggers to stab their enemies, even in self-defense? He taught them to love their enemies!
 

aikido7

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No, He didn't.
The traditional interpretation of "do not resist an evildoer" has been nonresistance to evil—an odd conclusion, given the fact that on every occasion Jesus himself resisted evil with every fiber of his being.

The gospel does not teach nonresistance to evil. Jesus counsels resistance, but without violence.

The Greek word translated "resist" in Matt. 5:39 is antistenai meaning literally to stand (stenai) against (anti).

What translators have over-looked is that antistenai is most often used in the Greek version of the Old Testament as a technical term for warfare. It describes the way opposing armies would march toward each other until their ranks met. Then they would "take a stand," that is, fight.

Ephesians 6:13 uses precisely this imagery: "Therefore take up the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to withstand [antistenai] on that evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm [istenai]."

The image is of soldiers standing their ground, refusing to flee. In short, antistenai means MORE here than simply to "resist" evil. It means to resist violently, to revolt or rebel, to engage in an armed insurrection.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Bible translators working in the hire of King James on what came to be known as the King James Version knew that the king did not want people to conclude that they had any recourse against his or any other sovereign's tyranny.

James had explicitly commissioned a new translation of the Bible because of what he regarded as "seditious . . . dangerous, and trayterous" tendencies in the marginal notes printed in the Geneva Bible, which included endorsement of the right to disobey a tyrant.

Therefore, the public had to be made to believe that there are two alternatives, and only two: flight or fight. And Jesus is made to command us, according to these king's men, to resist not. Jesus appears to authorize monarchical absolutism. It says that submission is the will of God.

And most modern translators have meekly followed in that path.

Jesus is not telling us to submit to evil, but to refuse to oppose it on its own terms. We are not to let the opponent dictate the methods of our opposition. He is urging us to transcend both passivity and violence by finding a "third way", one that is at once assertive and yet nonviolent.

The correct translation would be the one still preserved in the earliest renditions of this saying found in the New Testament epistles:
"Do not repay evil for evil" (Rom. 12:17; 1 Thes. 5:15; 1 Pet. 3:9).

The verse according to a new translation called the "Scholars Version" reads in Matthew: "Don't react violently against the one who is evil."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Under the New Testament, is it wrong to stand up for a loved one. That is, if they are under a threat.
Example: A man hits your wife, from that point (biblically) what should you do? (Under New Covenant)

Please back up statements with scripture.

Damian/Mr Adam

1 Timothy 5:8 But those who won't care for their relatives, especially those in their own household, have denied the true faith. Such people are worse than unbelievers.
 

Huckleberry

New member
Of course not.

Why didn't the martyrs defend themselves?
Let's figure that out. Give me some examples.
Soldiers believe they are defending their country in some way.
All of them? Really? News to me.
:think:
No, I think I'll call bull on that one. You have to know that's false. And regardless, it's irrelevant. We have to right (duty, I'd argue) to defend ourselves and the innocent, not just any old thing we decide we'd like to defend, like a nation or its politics.
Why did the Ante-Nicene church reject military service for Christians?
Why cares? Why does any other church or any group of theologians or anyone with so much as a contrary opinion on the matter disagree with the ante-nicene church? Explain why their opinion trumps anyone and everyone else's.
Jesus made the statement in a self-defense context.
Against lawful authorities. The rebuke was obviously (to anyone not having a vested interest their willing to twist scripture over anyway) a warning that lashing out at the guards like they could get you very dead. And rightly so, as they were performing the duty quite lawfully!

The context is things you need for daily living as a travelling minister, like a money bag, a knapsack and a knife to cut meat with.

3162 máχaira – properly, a slaughter-knife; a short sword or dagger mainly used for stabbing; (figuratively) an instrument for exacting retribution.

1. a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh: Homer, Pindar, Herodotus,​

Why on earth would I think Jesus was telling them to carry daggers to stab their enemies, even in self-defense? He taught them to love their enemies!
From Strong's:

Word: macaira
Pronounce: makh'-ahee-rah
Strongs Number: G3162
Orig: probably feminine of a presumed derivative of 3163; a knife, i.e. dirk; figuratively, war, judicial punishment:--sword. G3163
Use: TDNT-4:524,572 Noun Feminine
Heb Strong: H1270 H2595 H2719 H3979
1) a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh
2) a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword
2a) curved sword, for a cutting stroke
2b) a straight sword, for thrusting
 

aikido7

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Banned
No, He didn't. He said those who live by the sword will die by it. Living by the sword is not the same as defending oneself or ones family.
He also advocated responding to evil by not stooping to the level of one's opponent.Jesus counsels resistance, but without violence

When questioned by Pilate who had fears about Jesus's followers responding to Jesus's death by violence and killing, he told Pilate that his followers were "not of this world."

Over and over again examples can be found that Jesus counsels resistance, but without violence:

***Jesus' second example of assertive nonviolence is set in a court of law. A creditor has taken a poor man to court over an unpaid loan. Only the poorest of the poor were subjected to such treatment. Deuteronomy 24:10-13 provided that a creditor could take as collateral for a loan a poor person's long outer robe, but it had to be returned each evening so the poor man would have something in which to sleep.

Jesus is not advising people to add to their disadvantage by renouncing justice altogether, as so many commentators have suggested. He is telling impoverished debtors, who have nothing left but the clothes on their backs, to use the system against itself.

***Going the second mile, Jesus' third example, is drawn from the relatively enlightened practice of limiting to a single mile the amount of forced or impressed labor that Roman soldiers could levy on subject peoples. Such compulsory service was a constant feature in Palestine from Persian to late Roman times. Whoever was found on the street could be coerced into service, as was Simon of Cyrene, who was forced to carry Jesus' cross. Armies had to be moved with dispatch. Ranking legionnaires bought slaves or donkeys
to carry their packs of sixty to eighty-five pounds (not including weapons). The majority of the rank and file,however, had to depend on impressed civilians. Whole villages, according to historical researchers, sometimes fled to avoid being forced to carry soldiers' baggage.

What is often overlooked in this passage is the fact that carrying the pack a second mile is an infraction of military code. It puts the soldier in a bind.

***"If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also" (Matt. 5:39b).

We can probably imagine a blow with the right fist. But such a blow would fall on the left cheek. To hit the right cheek with a fist would require the left hand. But the left hand could be used only for unclean tasks; at Qumran, a Jewish religious community of Jesus' day, to gesture with the left hand meant exclusion from the meeting and penance for ten days.

Physically try it: how would you hit the other's right cheek with your right hand? If you try it, you will know: the only feasible blow is a
backhand.

The backhand was not a blow to injure, but to insult, humiliate, degrade. It was not administered to an equal, but to an inferior. Masters backhanded slaves; husbands, wives; parents, children; Romans, Jews. The whole point of the blow was to force someone who was out of line back into place.

Notice Jesus' audience: "If anyone strikes you." These are people used to being thus degraded. He is saying to them, "Refuse to accept this kind of treatment anymore. If they backhand you, turn the other cheek."

By turning the cheek, the servant makes it impossible for the master to use the backhand again. As we know from Jewish sources, and the last thing the master wishes to do is to establish this underling's equality. This act of defiance renders the master incapable of asserting his dominance in this relationship.

He can have the slave beaten, but he can no longer cow him.

By turning the cheek, then, the "inferior" is saying: "I'm a human being, just like you. I refuse to be humiliated any longer. I am your equal. I am a child of God. I won't take it anymore."

Neither violence nor passivity. Jesus teaches a "third way" of responding to violent action.

I agree with these interpretations.
 
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